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03:54:21 <loki> ryan
03:54:23 <loki> joepie91
03:58:38 <loki> anyone there?
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06:25:47 <ShadowDemonX> Meow
06:26:42 <ShadowDemonX> Any good programming ideas lately?
06:26:52 <ShadowDemonX> I'm feeling like building another opensource project
06:26:53 <ShadowDemonX> :D
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06:58:23 <monod> good morning/evening
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07:06:43 <MK_FG> It's always morning on /join
07:11:20 <MK_FG> Damn, whoever thought throwing "Database is locked" errors 1/1M commits from sqlite was a good idea should be disciplined
07:52:41 <ShadowDemonX> meow
07:52:44 <ShadowDemonX> :D
07:53:14 <ShadowDemonX> brb all
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11:45:45 <mama> hello
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13:12:29 <Cryto420> dma
13:12:30 <Cryto420> 음
13:12:33 <Cryto420> 여긴 어디지
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14:55:47 <lady-3jane> no, not korea
14:58:30 * zxcvbnm is not korea
15:01:57 <lady-3jane> hmm, did wheezy really launch with ff10?
15:02:13 <lady-3jane> cause it went out of support in february :/
15:02:47 <MK_FG> It's stable debian we're talking about
15:03:30 <MK_FG> Software there supposed to be out-of-date by years
15:04:47 <lady-3jane> well but they should be targeting esr's
15:04:58 <lady-3jane> those /are/ the stable ones
15:04:59 <lady-3jane> :/
15:05:12 <lady-3jane> and yeah, 17's already well out of date lol
15:05:20 <lady-3jane> what're we at, 21 or something?
15:05:27 <MK_FG> Not out-of-date enough!
15:05:41 <lady-3jane> 20, apparently
15:05:43 <lady-3jane> soon 21 I think
15:06:00 <MK_FG> Debian's the only thing between us and singularity
15:06:08 <lady-3jane> well I'm glad it's there
15:06:35 <lady-3jane> some motherfucker needs a stable platform so their shit doesn't break every three weeks
15:06:55 <MK_FG> Clearly he's not hipster enough
15:07:05 <lady-3jane> hmm
15:07:22 <lady-3jane> will ESR's update to the next ESR? or only to their own point releases?
15:07:33 <lady-3jane> like, on windows via autoupdate or whatever
15:07:54 <MK_FG> I'd think the latter
15:08:03 <lady-3jane> hmm I hope not
15:08:10 <MK_FG> Until it goes end-of-life, sending some warning maybe
15:08:14 <lady-3jane> I want to put them on the people I help with computers
15:08:30 <lady-3jane> I want to put them on the people I help with's computers
15:08:31 <lady-3jane> *
15:08:54 <lady-3jane> they can't deal with updates, most of them
15:09:21 <lady-3jane> I really wish windows had a background update option
15:09:38 <lady-3jane> install updates at next reboot, not forcing the computer to restart and losing their work
15:10:08 <lady-3jane> I can't comprehend why it doesn't work that way
15:10:08 <MK_FG> Heh, yeah, that "I wanna reboot, fuck you user!" thing is annoying...
15:10:35 <lady-3jane> and yeah, updates at reboot is annoying too (takes a long time to reboot maybe) but it's only once per month
15:10:50 <lady-3jane> and it's already got the big pretty "installing updates! woot!" screen
15:11:21 <MK_FG> I'd imagine they might've done that in win8 or something
15:13:15 <lady-3jane> I hope so
15:13:31 <lady-3jane> If not, they really won't have improved much of the user-facing stuff in win8
15:13:32 <lady-3jane> lol
15:13:42 <lady-3jane> I want to see 8.1
15:13:53 <lady-3jane> I think I will judge that one, not 8
15:14:01 <lady-3jane> like vista coming before 7
15:14:51 <MK_FG> Shouldn't it be 9 then? You think any amount of .1 could've saved vista?
15:15:06 <zxcvbnm> depends on how you look at it
15:15:30 <zxcvbnm> millenium and 2000 are basically synonymous
15:15:39 <zxcvbnm> but Windows ME is not synonymous w/ Windows 2000
15:15:51 <zxcvbnm> Windows ME is synonymous with "please gouge my eyes out don't make me do this anymore"
15:16:30 <MK_FG> Millenium is 1k, not 2k!
15:16:33 <zxcvbnm> But, I agree with you MK_FG --> Shouldn't be 8.1, my guess is they are sticking with the "8" because of brand investment
15:16:52 <MK_FG> I'm just trolling
15:17:01 * zxcvbnm is just looking for a reason to vent about windows ME
15:17:02 <MK_FG> I've no idea if vista is actually that terrible
15:17:08 <zxcvbnm> vista is actually terrible
15:17:25 <zxcvbnm> well,except I'd say vista was terrible. because it's pretty much dead
15:17:50 <zxcvbnm> windows 7 is the most stable operating system windows made since xp
15:17:57 * zxcvbnm prepares for someone to flame
15:18:37 <MK_FG> *crickets*
15:18:45 <zxcvbnm> whew
15:22:05 <zxcvbnm> so if anyone wants to see something that's pretty cool
15:22:33 <zxcvbnm> I built this for our NOC to monitor OWA logins
15:22:38 <zxcvbnm> http://i.imgur.com/yHchGzE.png
15:22:54 <zxcvbnm> obviously data has been redacted, those columns will normally be full :)
15:23:14 <zxcvbnm> but so that's a real time monitor, and you can click on those circles and drill down to username, ip, city, etc etc
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15:25:07 <zxcvbnm> another handy one -- this timechart depicting SSH failures. if you mouse over the different peaks, it tells you user@dest and source IP/hostname.
15:25:11 <zxcvbnm> http://i.imgur.com/LScIQPo.png
15:25:33 <zxcvbnm> So you can see that during business hours, we expect a certain amount of failures to occur (not necessarily malicious)
15:25:55 <zxcvbnm> so it is very easy to see something out of the ordinary if someone halfway around the world is attempting to login during the middle of the night
15:26:06 <zxcvbnm> (granted, this is only looking for failures. wouldn't help if the creds are popped)
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15:58:20 <lady-3jane> Nah man, win7 really was a pretty decent OS
15:58:37 <lady-3jane> and after sp1, even the niggling problems it had were mostly tweaked out
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16:20:11 <zxcvbnm> do you guys use Android phones? 
16:36:44 * joepie91 does not
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17:02:59 <DrWhat> joepie91 cgit is down
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17:05:33 <joepie91> ofc it is, it always is >.>
17:05:56 <joepie91> works now
17:17:44 <DrWhat> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nYSwuhsLa0
17:19:24 <DrWhat> THE CUP SONG IS A STEAL
17:22:15 <joepie91> loggy, pointer?
17:22:15 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-05-07#T17-22-15
17:22:24 <joepie91> ..
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17:24:01 <DrWhat> loggy, Suck my dick please.
17:24:03 <joepie91> uh
17:24:06 <joepie91> zxcvbnm
17:24:16 <joepie91> you know that there are significant differences between 2000 and ME, right?
17:24:19 <DrWhat> Loggy, dick suck now!
17:24:25 <joepie91> such as one being built on the NT kernel, and the other being built on consumer kernel?
17:24:33 <DrWhat> SUCK MY DICK YOU FUCKING STUPID ROBOT
17:24:40 <DrWhat> joepie91 loggy is broken
17:24:47 <joepie91> no, loggy is fine
17:24:49 <joepie91> my connection was broken
17:24:50 <joepie91> lol
17:24:54 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: yeah I was just being dumb :) That was just me talking out of my ass
17:25:20 <DrWhat> joepie91 is there a diffrence between xp and media center other then the ui?
17:25:45 <MK_FG> I thought the point there was "they sound same, but in fact are totally different"
17:25:51 <joepie91> DrWhat: I think there were some other drivers shipped with it
17:25:52 <zxcvbnm> Yeah, it was
17:25:56 <joepie91> but aside from that, probably not terribly much
17:26:02 <MK_FG> Which I think that diff illustrates better than anything ;)
17:26:04 <joepie91> (TV card drivers and such fun)
17:26:24 <joepie91> MK_FG: heh.
17:26:25 * zxcvbnm brbs
17:27:49 <joepie91> DrWhat: please
17:27:53 <joepie91> don't do getter functions
17:27:55 <joepie91> in PHP
17:28:00 <joepie91> re: your earlier OOP screenshots
17:28:14 <joepie91> function gender() { return $this->gender; } really doesn't make much sense...
17:28:43 <MK_FG> Well, unless it does something expensive
17:29:30 <joepie91> if your function consists of returning a variable, it probably has no reason to exist
17:29:32 <joepie91> otherwise, you might be fine
17:29:37 <joepie91> in fact, __get is often a better option
17:29:59 <joepie91> (say that you need something that works like a variable in every way, but is retrieved on request lazily... then __get is awesome)
17:31:30 <MK_FG> It's annoying when you do "a = obj.gender", expecting it to be attr just like obj.age and end up with 10s call to some api or db
17:31:55 <MK_FG> Imho that is a good reason to make it obvious that it's a method, not just a property
17:31:56 <joepie91> it very much depends on the kind of application you're developing
17:32:42 <joepie91> for example, in CVM, which manages OpenVZ VPSes, the VPS data is a mixture of locally stored stuff (resource limits, traffic usage, OS, etc) and 'live' remote data (RAM usage, disk usage, current VPS status, etc.)
17:33:05 <joepie91> it makes much more sense to use __get there, otherwise you'd have a seemingly insensible mess of variables and methods
17:33:06 <ryan> I like how
17:33:14 <ryan> people who sell openvz
17:33:19 <ryan> stack like 3 frontends
17:33:40 <ryan> there's that thing that vzctl accesses, then there's vzctl and then there's usually the web panel
17:33:40 <joepie91> the __get things just SSH into the slave node when necessary (well, kind of... the inner workings have changed a bit by now)
17:33:53 <joepie91> ryan: have you ever looked at vzctl source?
17:33:57 <joepie91> it effectively *is* openvz
17:34:04 <joepie91> it's a ridiculous mess
17:34:15 <joepie91> there is no hypervisor to talk to
17:34:24 <joepie91> without vzctl, it's infeasible to control openvz at all
17:34:31 <ryan> o
17:34:45 <MK_FG> Um, the kernel? OpenVZ is just a namespaces there
17:34:58 <joepie91> it's also extremely messy, inconsistent, and poorly written, from what I can see
17:35:09 <joepie91> MK_FG: openvz is a combination of kernel modifications and userspace stuff, it would seem
17:35:20 <joepie91> I am unsure of the exact internals, especially because I don't like diving into poor code
17:35:23 <ryan> openvz is extremely messy and poorly implemented and a horrible idea
17:35:25 <joepie91> but the vzctl code was somewhat... shocking
17:35:38 <joepie91> basically, yes
17:35:52 <ryan> if you're going to virtualize, then virtualize
17:35:53 <ryan> if not
17:36:03 <joepie91> but yeah, realistically... the only way to write an openvz panel, is to talk to vzctl :/
17:36:07 <MK_FG> Then use pids/uids/gids?
17:36:08 <ryan> then don't
17:36:12 <ryan> MK_FG: p much
17:36:31 <joepie91> ryan: I'd rather write a decently secure openvz panel, than let people work with solusvm...
17:36:37 <MK_FG> They have their limitations though, hence e.g. chroot, network interfaces, etc
17:36:45 <joepie91> and hypervm, while (oddly) being more secure than solusvm, is such a horror to work with
17:36:48 <joepie91> that it's not a reasonable option either
17:36:59 <MK_FG> It's weird how namespaces are orthogonal to all these
17:37:07 <ryan> joepie91: you will end up with someone eventually leaking an openvz breakout
17:37:21 <ryan> it's not designed to be secure
17:37:25 <ryan> it's a glorified chroot
17:37:35 <joepie91> the problem is that the alternatives (with regards to paravirtualization) are worse
17:37:39 <joepie91> LXC, for example, has worse issues
17:37:43 <joepie91> even though it's apparently better designed
17:37:49 <joepie91> but it's not made for complete isolation
17:38:08 <MK_FG> ryan, Heh, well, you say that, but iirc Kir Kolyshkin explicitly stated that it is, and they test it for it ;)
17:38:12 <joepie91> openvz makes it trivial to oversell many kinds of resources, and full virtualization platforms do not
17:38:24 <joepie91> that alone is enough reason for many hosts not to use full virt
17:38:29 <MK_FG> lxc is tools for parts of openvz that got merged into kernel by now
17:38:40 <MK_FG> So that one is definitely lacking and less-tested
17:38:44 <ryan> freebsd community has known for ages that you aren't supposed to expect bulletproof security (Required while selling hosting) from jails
17:40:32 <MK_FG> I still like that you can get working-right-now capabilities model for services from it
17:42:52 <MK_FG> You should be reasonably safe handling openvz container on a server to some web-developer so (s)he can develop and test some app there, not so much with just uid/gid (which also don't allow many things openvz does)...
17:43:17 <MK_FG> ...and full vms there are just too expensive, with their own fs and non-shared ram
17:43:20 <joepie91> ryan: http://git.openvz.org/?p=vzctl;a=tree;f=src
17:44:16 <ryan> "Enter the correct password or I will write a 3-part article on this failed login attempt."
17:44:17 <MK_FG> And with current kernels, these namespaces can be nested, so that developer can further divide the task and isolate services within his realm...
17:44:50 <ryan> joepie91: I really like the else if 
17:45:21 <joepie91> in where? :P
17:45:37 <ryan> is that a question
17:45:51 <ryan> there's literally a else if every other line
17:46:00 <joepie91> well ok, fair point
17:46:01 <joepie91> heh
17:46:09 <ryan> http://git.openvz.org/?p=vzctl;a=blob_plain;f=src/vzctl.c;hb=HEAD
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19:35:35 <lady-3jane> NP: [Rush - Tom Sawyer] [Moving Pictures] [1744kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
19:36:43 <lady-3jane> hmm
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19:52:26 <lady-3jane> NP: [Maroon 5 - Moves Like Jagger [feat. Christina Aguilera]] [Hands All Over [2011 Reissue]] [1008kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
19:57:08 <lady-3jane> NP: [Lenny Kravitz - American Woman (Bonus Track)] [5] [894kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
19:57:13 <lady-3jane> :>
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20:29:15 <DrWhat> joepie91 i saw this and thought about you
20:29:16 <DrWhat> http://dagobah.biz/flash/heap_of_trouble.swf
20:41:31 <joepie91> doesn
20:41:37 <joepie91> doesn't load for me, DrWhat *
20:45:36 <DrWhat> uhhh
20:45:46 <DrWhat> Do you have flash enabled?
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20:49:31 <monod> flash is evil
20:50:03 <monod> :P
20:50:05 <monod> kidding
20:50:05 <MK_FG> The comicbook hero? No!
20:50:15 <monod> haha
20:50:20 <monod> hello there MK_FG 
20:50:28 <MK_FG> Hoyhoy
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21:20:11 <joepie91> <DrWhat>Do you have flash enabled?
21:20:12 <joepie91> yes, I do
21:20:44 <DrWhat> Dont know why it doesnt work then
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21:25:41 <amnesthesia> ohai
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21:26:42 <crytocc-c> $f2 = array('ass', 'whipes', 'today');
21:26:42 <crytocc-c>     $f3 = array('my' => 'ass', 'is' => 'so', 'freaking' => 'sexy');
21:26:42 <crytocc-c>     $length2 = count($f2);
21:26:42 <crytocc-c>     for ($i = 0; $i < $length2; $i++) {
21:26:42 <crytocc-c>         echo $food[$i].' ';
21:26:42 <crytocc-c>     } echo '<br>';
21:26:42 <crytocc-c>     foreach($f3 as $fw=>$fs) {
21:26:42 <crytocc-c>         echo $fw.' '.$fs.' ';
21:26:42 <crytocc-c>     }
21:26:47 <crytocc-c> someone run that in your site lol
21:26:55 <joepie91> MK_FG
21:27:04 <joepie91> amnesthesia has a question that you may be able to help out with, perhaps
21:27:09 <joepie91> if you're awake :)
21:27:13 <joepie91> also, hai amnesthesia
21:27:17 <amnesthesia> Ohai!
21:27:27 <crytocc-c> the result = ass whipes today 
21:27:28 <crytocc-c> my ass is so freaking sexy
21:27:29 <MK_FG> Not for long
21:27:39 <amnesthesia> And if you're not, the question reads as follows (you can just PM me later or whenever you have time)
21:27:48 <joepie91> crytocc-c: you know that that code won't run successfully, right?
21:27:52 <joepie91> there is no $food array defined
21:28:01 <crytocc-c> yep
21:28:06 <crytocc-c> I messed up the C+P
21:28:12 <crytocc-c> change $food to $f2
21:28:41 <amnesthesia> MK_FG: Know much about Elliptic Curve Cryptography? I'm doing a report on SSL, and, more specifically, an analysis of a wireshark capture which includes usages of EC-Diffie-Hellman. I've written how Diffie-Hellman works, but now I bumped into something previously unknown to me; EEC. 
21:29:01 <amnesthesia> So I kind of need to get into EEC, and more specifically EC-Diffie-Hellman. Do you have any good links or recommendation on where to start? This seems like a damn broad field
21:30:31 <monod> I would suggest you academic books, amnesthesia 
21:30:47 <MK_FG> amnesthesia, Nope, I don't really know how it works under the hood, and generally suck at math, sorry ;)
21:30:53 <monod> they have plenty of theory in them, so if any exist on that topic, you may start learning the basics
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21:31:12 <amnesthesia> monod: I kind of just need a quick-start at the moment -- it's due in a weeks time and I didn't expect to bump into this :(
21:31:24 <monod> oh god
21:31:25 <amnesthesia> I've yet to finish the parts about RSA and DSA 
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21:31:55 <monod> offtopic: this is not your first time here, or am I wrong?
21:32:08 <amnesthesia> Yeah :( Hence the desperate cry for suggestions on where to start
21:32:09 <amnesthesia> Oh no, not at all
21:32:12 <amnesthesia> I just forgot to set my BNC to sign on automatically
21:32:14 <monod> the only thing I can come up with is.... google. :(
21:32:32 <amnesthesia> Though I rarely speak, because I always seem to sign on when it's kind of desolate in here :x
21:32:51 <monod> "desolate in here" you mean, were you are at?
21:33:27 <amnesthesia> Nah, in this channel
21:33:37 <amnesthesia> I always seem to check it at a bad time :)
21:33:57 <monod> oh, lawl
21:34:47 <monod> you need to know how EEC WORKS?
21:35:52 <MK_FG> Why EEC?
21:36:00 <monod> ECC is the next-gen crypto, after RSA
21:36:01 <MK_FG> And not ECC or EC?
21:36:07 <monod> if I recall right
21:36:09 <MK_FG> Sure, but EEC?
21:36:22 <monod> hmm, I think he has mistyped it :/
21:36:34 <MK_FG> And so did you!
21:36:56 <monod> yeah, before thinking of its name
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21:38:47 <amnesthesia> MK_FG: EEC is just the concept I thought
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21:38:57 <amnesthesia> I mean't ECC though
21:39:17 <amnesthesia> Elliptic Curve Cryptography ... But in practice it's EC-Diffie-Hellman I'm mostly interested in, and a brief introduction to the concept
21:41:01 <amnesthesia> I've gotten SOMEWHAT into it, but not enough to be able to draw up an example on my own
21:41:01 <amnesthesia> I just "kind of know what its about"
21:41:01 <amnesthesia> Unless I can make an example to show how and why it works, I dont properly understand it
21:41:30 <monod> I read from wikipedia that you have to know what discrete logarithms are
21:41:59 <monod> and why are they comparable to integer factorization, to the point that it's being used as a base for a cryptographical system
21:42:22 <monod> "why are they", --> "why is it"
21:42:44 <amnesthesia> I think I could do that
21:42:53 <monod> and you named "examples"
21:42:55 <amnesthesia> 'think' being the keyword in that statement
21:43:27 <monod> can you easily give examples for EC-Diffie-Hellman?
21:43:40 <monod> (don't need to asnwer to me)
21:44:32 <amnesthesia> No not at all
21:44:35 <amnesthesia> That's my point
21:44:39 <amnesthesia> I can give examples of Diffie-Hellman
21:45:11 <amnesthesia> But I need to understand ECC good enough, and specifically EC-Diffie-Hellman good enough, to give an example of how that hotshot Bob would use it to hit on Alice
21:45:33 <monod> heh�
21:45:36 <monod> heh*
21:46:40 <monod> I think you could try reading the original statements from the two people who first thought about introducing elliptic curves into cryptography
21:47:08 <monod> http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2007884?uid=3738296&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102174916081
21:47:27 <monod> in order to do that, this is a link that points to one of the two of them
21:47:30 <monod> 's book
21:47:35 <monod> article*
21:47:50 <monod> book** xD
21:47:53 <amnesthesia> Thanks man -- at least I have a starting point :)
21:48:05 <monod> which is kind of an academic book
21:48:18 <monod> but I literally forgot you only have 2 weeks
21:48:24 <amnesthesia> 1 week.
21:48:33 <amnesthesia> To do RSA, DSA and ECC
21:48:33 <amnesthesia> :x
21:48:44 <monod> break a leg!
21:48:48 <zxcvbnm> what type of a presentation is this?
21:48:49 <amnesthesia> Haha thanks :D
21:48:50 <zxcvbnm> super detailed ?
21:48:55 <zxcvbnm> speaking to phds ?
21:49:02 <zxcvbnm> speaking to moms ?
21:49:05 <amnesthesia> zxcvbnm: It's a report, we're 4 people working on it, and I'm doing the technical part
21:49:05 <zxcvbnm> peers ?
21:49:06 <monod> lulz
21:49:12 <zxcvbnm> Ah
21:49:26 <zxcvbnm> So you have to get up and say, to get the lliptic curve E over R, you must do this
21:49:58 <amnesthesia> I didn't even think of EC-Diffie-Hellman or ECC at all, didn't even know of their existance, until today when we started analyzing the wireshark dump we were given
21:50:12 <amnesthesia> and it contained these ec_point_parameter and ec_elliptic_curve fields etc
21:50:25 <amnesthesia> and I started googling around and realized "Holy fuck this is a completely untouched field for us"
21:50:29 <zxcvbnm> oh awesome.
21:50:33 <zxcvbnm> i mean, that sucks for your group
21:50:35 <zxcvbnm> but, sounds fun
21:50:42 <amnesthesia> And that being in the dump we're supposed to analyze ... I can't just leave it out of the report
21:50:51 <zxcvbnm> Right sure
21:50:52 <amnesthesia> I have to at least give a brief introduction to it, and preferably an example of it as well
21:51:10 <amnesthesia> These things are the kind of projects that are really really fun
21:51:12 <amnesthesia> but not under pressure
21:51:13 <amnesthesia> :X
21:51:24 <amnesthesia> But hey, it'll be awesome in hindsight!
21:51:31 <zxcvbnm> So, since you are short on time
21:51:38 <zxcvbnm> I'll recommend a video
21:51:54 <amnesthesia> I saw one made by CISCO or something; or TechTV
21:52:45 <zxcvbnm> Hm, yeah, I wasn't going to recommend a specific one. But, someone else presenting what you are trying to present might give you some ideas.
21:53:02 <amnesthesia> Yeah sure
21:53:07 <zxcvbnm> I personally am not a cryptologist :) So I won't pretend to know something I don't
21:53:09 <amnesthesia> Anything at all to go on would be great
21:54:42 <zxcvbnm> http://wesecure.net/tview.php?ictitle=learn/crypto4355443
21:54:45 <zxcvbnm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afyqwc96M1Y
21:54:47 <zxcvbnm> combined w/ those 2
21:54:52 <zxcvbnm> equations on one, video on the other
21:55:00 <zxcvbnm> specifically referencing your Alice & Bob
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22:01:57 <amnesthesia> Awesome
22:01:59 <amnesthesia> Thank you :)
22:02:07 <DrWhat> My vpn just died
22:02:12 <DrWhat> and i cant reconnect
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22:12:56 <zxcvbnm> Also -- amnesthesia, this is a good page and specifically talkings about ECDH & elliptic domain parameters, both of which are you mentioned
22:13:00 <zxcvbnm> http://www.dkrypt.com/home/ecc
22:13:21 <lady-3jane> ha! win! I just patched up nginx this morning
22:14:00 <lady-3jane> latest blackhole distribution mechanism pops apache, nginx, and lighttpd
22:14:01 <lady-3jane> epic
22:14:13 <zxcvbnm> Yeah, I saw that cve 
22:15:19 <lady-3jane> I saw it this morning, patched immediately
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23:18:16 <watup> is there a way to back up your vpn, that even if connection fails, u automatically connect to a new one?
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