00:08:08 *** BigAnon (BigAnon@A2B85FB6.495D65D2.80CBFD1A.IP) has joined #crytocc 00:33:59 *** Ari has quit (Connection reset by peer) 00:43:23 *** AnonyOps (AnonyOps@cryto-5167D786.woh.res.rr.com) has joined #crytocc 01:25:34 *** BigAnon has quit (Ping timeout) 02:20:36 *** x (foobar@C35CA8A8.589C91BA.8F6A2B14.IP) has joined #crytocc 02:54:18 *** AnonyOps has quit (Connection reset by peer) 03:50:55 *** x has quit (Input/output error) 04:47:48 *** mama has quit (Ping timeout) 05:05:03 *** T0R_till (T0R_till@cryto-ED61415A.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com) has joined #crytocc 05:06:24 *** T0R_till has quit (User quit: Connection closed) 06:09:48 *** HiveResearch (HiveResear@developers.developers.developers) has joined #crytocc 06:13:03 *** HiveResearch has quit (Ping timeout) 06:43:02 *** x (foobar@C35CA8A8.589C91BA.8F6A2B14.IP) has joined #crytocc 06:44:27 *** speakeasy (speakeasy@speakeasy.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 07:30:03 *** ryan has quit (Client exited) 08:49:08 *** RuDy (~RuDy@RuDy.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 08:53:41 *** RuDy has quit (User quit: Leaving) 08:53:51 *** RuDy (RuDy__@RuDy.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 09:01:16 *** LapAnon (AnonO@LapAnon.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 09:02:44 *** landrone has quit (Ping timeout) 09:19:43 *** RuDy has quit (Client exited) 09:29:34 *** RuDy (RuDy__@RuDy.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 11:27:19 *** mama (me@cryto-399FF2DF.ro1.torservers.net) has joined #crytocc 11:30:57 *** monod (~pmpf@monod.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 11:31:04 hello guys 11:31:47 need suggestions on how to build from zero my own homepage, on my computer 11:32:07 I have installed the "web server" package when installing the distro 11:32:39 and I know I have a folder, /var/www/, which has the purpose of hosting the website 11:32:46 I have two problems for now: 11:32:47 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=to+build+webpage 11:32:59 let me google that for you?? 11:33:08 I was coming to my point.. 11:33:24 the points are two, at the moment: 11:33:49 afk 11:33:57 *** monod has quit (Client exited) 11:42:17 Meeting tonight May 12 at 11:00pm GMT in #ideas for your questions about the new chat system; Join us at irc.cyberguerrilla.org , lis5ghm2ai4yjoxy.onion or irc.anonplus.com 12:02:09 *** monod (~pmpf@monod.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 12:02:16 back again 12:03:13 so, I was saying: 1) is it safe to have a website whose owner on the pc is root? 2) can you share some security countermeasures to apply to hosted websties? 12:05:59 *** RuDy has quit (Ping timeout) 12:18:35 *** LapAnon has quit (Connection reset by peer) 12:20:12 *** landrone (AnonO@LapAnon.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 12:20:22 *** truetravesty has quit (Ping timeout) 12:21:06 *** truetravesty (truetraves@7ABB88F7.2C566207.79E6D716.IP) has joined #crytocc 12:24:57 *** Kamonra has quit (Ping timeout) 12:25:52 *** Ishaq has quit (Ping timeout) 12:26:03 *** Ishaq (Ishaq@cryto-6C73979.rf.usr.sh) has joined #crytocc 12:28:55 http://anon.inf.tu-dresden.de/ 12:28:59 take this! :D 12:29:16 or read the description of the anon-proxy package 12:30:36 *** Kamonra (kamonra@B9746EC0.815958C3.A4C8B90B.IP) has joined #crytocc 12:36:50 *** RuDy (RuDy__@RuDy.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 12:52:43 Joepie our bot Machno still banned here :( 12:56:28 Please unban cyberguerrilla.org / 5.9.108.74 12:57:08 so we can relay your network to tonight meeting about the new chat system 12:57:27 you may even test it and give your comments 12:59:31 mama: new chat system? 12:59:55 twitchyliquid64: http://www.freeanons.info/wiki/index.php?title=New_Chat_System_Project 13:02:34 thx 13:06:01 yw :) 13:06:26 twitchyliquid64: tonight we have a meeting to give more explanations 13:23:06 *** monod has quit (User quit: monod) 13:54:24 *** x has quit (Input/output error) 13:58:12 *** mama has quit (Client exited) 13:59:03 *** mama (me@cryto-70E29873.torservers.net) has joined #crytocc 14:20:46 *** Xeross|AFK is now known as Xeross 15:09:15 no you don't want to have a website hosted by root, because if they get into your site, it's at root level, so they get EVERYTHING 15:12:29 *** Xeross is now known as Xeross|AFK 15:28:28 If website is the only thing of value there, then sure - let'em have it! 15:33:11 lol 15:33:41 * lady-3jane listens to chick rock 15:35:28 NP: [The Donnas - Too Bad About Your Girl] [Spend The Night] [975kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane 15:35:29 :D 15:36:26 Looking at hyperboria map, found where eztv keeps their servers - http://nl-hx.waaghals.me/globe/latest.svg ;) 15:37:54 huh 15:38:00 is that the alternet thing 15:38:11 vpn overlay shit 15:38:13 I forget 15:38:15 Teh daaaarknetz! 15:38:24 http://hyperboria.net/ 15:38:37 well maybe, but one of em was just an overly complicated internet inside the internet 15:39:05 hmm 15:39:12 I am thinking of maybe dn42 15:39:20 but they appear similar 15:40:25 I feel like connecting to a darknet would either be incredibly safe or incredibly unsafe, depending on who was there 15:40:31 Wah, no, cjdns makes it much simplier than doing ad-hoc tunneling 15:40:54 oh, cause the old ones required you to run quagga and shit 15:41:04 which is why I refused to even investigate them 15:41:26 And it handles all the routing, basically you do --genconf, add some peer, start it, and it gives you an ipv6 tun device plugged to teh net - done! 15:42:22 huh 15:42:26 nifty 15:42:39 and much improved over setting up your own routing software and tunnel software 15:44:39 ipv6 address there is also fingerprint of your ed25519 key, so static and unique 15:44:57 neat 15:45:09 so it's ipv6 ecc end to end? 15:45:16 Yep 15:45:18 there should be a `+` in there somewhere 15:45:19 haha 15:45:26 I forgetted it 15:45:41 ?KAFFE 15:45:44 damn 15:45:51 KAFFE GRANDE! MOAR KAFFE 4 Aranje...! 15:45:51 _ 15:45:52 /" = "\ 15:45:52 (| ¬_¬ |) 15:45:52 q\ = /p 15:45:52 ____/ --- \____ 15:45:57 .' // `. 15:45:58 / : // \ 15:46:00 / ∫________// \ 15:46:02 | |\________/ | | 15:46:04 | || | \ 15:46:06 \ \ ____/-. / 15:46:08 ___`. .'----^.^-\ `. .'___ 15:46:10 ."" '< `._____<|>_/___.' _> \"". 15:46:12 | | : `- \`. ;`. _/; .'/ / .' ; | 15:46:14 \ \ `-. \_\_`. _.'_/_/ -' _.' / 15:46:16 `-.`___`-.__\ \___ /__.-'_.'_.-' 15:46:18 Golden Code Buddha! 15:46:20 hmm, mine doesn't copy colors 15:46:40 |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) 15:46:42 /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' 15:46:42 |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ 15:46:42 '----'(_/--' (_/-' 15:46:44 15:46:46 Mehfail 15:46:52 efnet kitteh 15:46:56 hey hey, I waited 15:47:05 :P 15:47:14 *** Cryto485 (Cryto485@cryto-393CE8C4.dynamic.hinet.net) has joined #crytocc 15:47:32 hot dicks, that you can't even touch 15:47:49 Wat 15:48:02 I changed one word from a song 15:48:11 made it 100x better 15:50:24 *** Cryto485 has quit (Ping timeout) 15:52:08 *** speakeasy has quit (Ping timeout) 16:02:39 I'm getting more and more confused by how ff handles ipv6 16:02:49 http://[fc5d:baa5:61fc:6ffd:9554:67f0:e290:7535]/ is valid address, ok 16:03:02 But why http://[fc5d:baa5:61fc:6ffd:9554:67f0:e290:7535]/ is not? 16:03:08 Oops 16:03:35 Should be http://[fc7b:d79a:4eb5:28f6:5686:637d:9f75:5db6]/ 16:04:05 shit-tier internet says Error 109 (net::ERR_ADDRESS_UNREACHABLE): Unable to reach the server. 16:04:10 Just "The address isn't valid" and clears the URL bar 16:04:21 report you a bug? 16:04:36 They're on the hype-net, so shouldn't be routable from teh outside 16:04:49 doesn't matter, I have no ipv6 16:04:49 fc::/7 is "local" range on ipv6, I think 16:05:36 my link local is fe80 16:05:39 *** Cryto233 (Cryto233@C8FF0D35.E658D366.5DE9300A.IP) has joined #crytocc 16:05:45 which is the one I commonly see 16:06:35 *** Cryto233 has parted #crytocc () 16:07:04 Hm, true, it's something a bit different, it seems - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unique_local_address 16:07:10 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4193 16:07:38 mao tse tung said change must come, change must come through the barrel of a gun 16:07:43 NP: [alabama 3 - mao tse tung said] [exile on coldharbour lane] [906kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane 16:08:21 also, a small amount of entertainment for you, MK_FG http://i.imgur.com/IcKHSaO.png 16:08:24 nontechnical 16:08:29 *** speakeasy (speakeasy@speakeasy.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 16:09:00 hahaha best lyrics 16:09:16 "this place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a supervisor with a submachinegun" 16:10:04 Hm, right, link-local fe80::/10 can be used like that as well, but lower range is also mapped to mac's, so shouldn't be used 16:10:43 (as it might conflict with some mac among neighbors and screw up nei discovery, broadcasts and such) 16:10:53 so fc::/7 is local too? Or are they just using it 16:11:11 They are *true and proper* local! 16:11:16 hahaha 16:11:16 (fc::/7) 16:11:18 yeah 16:11:27 official spec local 16:11:27 :3 16:11:37 rfc4193-local! 16:11:40 hot 16:12:01 I'm waiting for new ipv6 implementations 16:12:15 all I hear is fud from people who are like "but it's less secure than ipv4!" 16:12:33 I'm like "well yeah, we've had 20+ years to work around ipv4's shortcomings" 16:13:04 6 has been around for 10 iirc, but not with nearly as wide deployment 16:13:14 shit, must be 15 years now 16:13:17 New ipv6 implementations meaning ipv8? ;) 16:13:34 haha nah, new rfc's to fix shortcomings, and implementation changes to fix stuff 16:13:48 there's been a flurry of them in the last couple years 16:13:57 Oh, but it's not like you can "wait till it's done" - it's an eternal loop 16:14:05 I know 16:14:19 I only hope someday I have native ipv6 16:14:24 At least until ipv8 arrives 16:14:29 pretty much 16:14:35 I don't actually want 4->8 16:14:41 that seems like an overly large transition 16:14:43 ;D 16:14:57 also soon http2 16:14:59 And we run out of 128-bit space due to being transformed into gray-goo nanomachines 16:15:04 I'm so excited though 16:15:09 all the old shit is getting updated 16:15:32 soon ipv6, http2, spdy 16:15:41 Eheh 16:15:54 This "soon" might as well be 15 more years! 16:16:00 I mean I run spdy already on my shit, but that's just cause I'm a bitch 16:16:05 that's fine 16:16:12 that's soon for enterprise 16:16:13 (at least for ipv6) 16:16:15 which is what slows us 16:16:42 I'd specify the difference between enterprise and gov, but there isn't one in usa 16:16:42 lol 16:16:52 Given that everyone seem to be running nginx these days, spdy looks like a done thing 16:16:58 yeah 16:17:06 I was so happy they mainlined it for 1.4 16:17:21 everyone'll get up onto that in the next 2 years 16:17:34 maybe 1.6 will default to spdy enabled 16:17:41 so no listen 443 spdy; 16:18:21 so maybe a 2-4 year transition and 25% of the frontends run spdy native 16:18:31 and that's current numbers, nginx grows every month 16:20:27 hahaha win 16:20:37 drone saved a guys life in canada 16:20:51 http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/12/1428224/injured-man-is-first-person-saved-by-a-police-drone-in-canada 16:21:16 watch as the news gets splattered with stories like that to turn the tide around 16:22:42 I expected the first comment to be "I, for one, welcome our drone overlords" 16:22:58 Tis' a slashdot after all 16:24:17 yeah 16:24:20 I like that one better 16:24:29 and, I do 16:24:31 but lol 16:26:38 *** RuDy has quit (User quit: Leaving) 16:29:11 hahaha MK_FG you did the same thing as me, putting all your shit on your contact page 16:29:20 you should mark it up with hcard metadata 16:29:21 lol 16:29:40 Well, why do you think I suggested it ;) 16:29:46 :3 16:30:36 I put my zipcode on there, and you can have a 9 digit zipcode in the us 16:30:45 which gives my neighborhood 16:30:53 :3 16:31:34 *** speakeasy has quit (User quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) 16:32:29 mostly cause my neighborhood is very pretty 16:32:30 ;p; 16:32:33 * lol 16:33:58 did joe show up today? 16:34:43 not yet 16:36:25 Meeting tonight May 12 at 11:00pm GMT in #ideas for your questions about the new chat system; Join us at irc.cyberguerrilla.org , lis5ghm2ai4yjoxy.onion or irc.anonplus.com; you may test it 16:36:37 thanks lady-3jane :D 16:36:52 np 17:02:43 *** mama has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** Kamonra has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** landrone has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** anonymous has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** foolex has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** ilikeapricot has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** uznut has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** AppleJack has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** MK_FG has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** shikat- has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** IR601 has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** jamesbt has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:02:43 *** SpaghettiCode has quit (haless.cryto.net nexus.cryto.net) 17:04:25 *** mama (me@cryto-70E29873.torservers.net) has joined #crytocc 17:04:25 *** Kamonra (kamonra@B9746EC0.815958C3.A4C8B90B.IP) has joined #crytocc 17:04:25 *** landrone (AnonO@LapAnon.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 17:04:25 *** anonymous (anonymous@anonymous.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 17:04:25 *** foolex (foolex@AD356075.7DC890E0.CEC56216.IP) has joined #crytocc 17:04:25 *** ilikeapricot (watup@ilikeapricot.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 17:04:25 *** SpaghettiCode (pasta@code.bonanza) has joined #crytocc 17:13:17 mama, can you PM me the exact message your bot gets upon connecting 17:13:22 I cannot find a ban for that IP... 17:14:05 joepie91: let me ask doemela before, thanks 17:14:17 *** uznut (uznut@uznut.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 17:14:17 *** AppleJack (sb@cryto-A18B0645.drama.tw) has joined #crytocc 17:14:17 *** MK_FG (MK_FG@MKFG-91968.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 17:14:17 *** shikat- (shikat@cryto-6540B885.yourvserver.net) has joined #crytocc 17:14:17 *** IR601 (IR601@41FB9167.2EAEB4E.20AD075F.IP) has joined #crytocc 17:14:17 *** jamesbt (jamesbt@E62F62BC.DCD17C32.959A841C.IP) has joined #crytocc 17:14:23 note that I need the *exact* message 17:14:25 copypasted 17:14:28 not part of it 17:14:31 not just one line of it 17:14:38 the entire message that is received upon connection attempt 17:16:31 I would be willing to bet their bot is behaving badly 17:18:14 joepie91: he is attemting to connect to have that msg 17:19:46 copypasta :D 17:21:16 lady-3jane: interesting to know 17:27:58 joepie91: msg on your pm 17:29:02 hahaha I use google translate enough that it gives me options to fix their translations 17:29:13 So I do ;3 17:29:21 LOL 17:29:41 I'm excited that, though I suck at french, I'm good enough to be able to fix translations 17:29:54 I know when google translate is fucking with me 17:29:58 :3 17:30:22 haha 17:55:27 Bubbling up through "obsoleted-by" RFC links, found https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6890#section-2.2.2 gem 17:55:46 All teh speshul ip ranges in one rfc 17:56:15 No more confusion over what fe80::/10 is! 18:00:41 nice 18:01:30 wow. 18:01:33 http://owely.com/81huoBn 18:01:37 this is just... I have no words 18:01:52 for how low these people are 18:02:47 "hey, ima just set up a shitty social network by grabbing premade 'social network' software, changing it to a terrible theme, and then try to market it by convincing armchair activists that they're helping charity even though I get 75% of the profits" 18:02:54 fuckers 18:03:44 these are the kind of people that come up with the retarded "buy this $5 product now and we donate $0.10 to a charity!" bullshit 18:04:06 Language there reminds me of sweet Markov Chains 18:12:32 that's horrible joepie91 18:13:30 Is it more horrible than any other con though? 18:13:53 yes, because it falls into advertising on the web AND scam 18:14:05 NP: [1200 Micrograms - Hashish] [1200 Micrograms] [257kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane 18:20:20 MK_FG: I reserve a special place in the hate corner of my mind, for those that try to con others and use 'charity' (in the broadest sense of the word) as a coverup 18:20:28 cc lady-3jane 18:20:54 actually, that entire sentence should be interpreted in its broadest sense. 18:21:24 Do you consider charity being a good thing in general? 18:21:51 Fairly sure it's not a universal point of view (e.g. objectivism) 18:22:33 MK_FG: interpreted as 'doing selfless good to help others', yes 18:23:47 I think I can agree with that one, then ;) 18:24:38 But the "good" here should mean "without hooking-up others on that charity and taking all such side-effects (e.g. wars over charity-stuff) into account" 18:25:12 Which I don't think is ever realistic 18:25:29 I... am not sure I understand what you mean 18:26:58 Simple example: you give me money, I get lazy and ask for more, you stop doing that, I die, being left with worse self-sustain-ability than w/o charity 18:27:24 So it's not "good" effect, from a broader perspective 18:28:31 And charity distributed to some third-world countries seem to have much worse effects than destroying their infrastructure 18:29:03 ...like wars and insane levels of power abuse emerging due to uneven distribution of it 18:29:41 right, uh 18:29:44 I should probably clarify 18:29:55 I have a slightly different definition of 'good' from most, it seems 18:30:05 'good' for me is not anything that emotionally feels right or justified 18:30:13 (such as giving money to a beggar) 18:30:40 'good' for me, is doing something that genuinely helps someone out, that genuinely increases their chances to have decent living standards, something that genuinely helps their freedom, etc 18:30:48 something that has effect in the real world, not just in theory 18:31:06 I do not donate to any charities for this reason 18:31:17 Yep, that's what I meant in 'But the "good" here should mean...' 18:31:30 unless a certain organization or person has a clearly defined goal, and I am confident that my donation will help them reach that goal 18:31:32 efficiently 18:31:44 it's also why I, for example, refuse to donate to YAN 18:31:53 even though I'm quite happy about their stated plans 18:32:03 because I do not believe they will use my donation optimally 18:32:05 or even in an effective way 18:32:13 but yeah 18:32:24 assuming the above definition of good, I definitely believe charity is always a good thing to do 18:32:24 :P 18:32:35 but, looking back, that seems like somewhat circular reasoning.. 18:33:13 Hmm 18:35:06 I'm not sure if "selfless" should be there - isn't that "good" being "what you consider to be good for the world" - so it's not selfless, since it's what *you* want 18:35:44 Confusing philosophies! 18:42:51 MK_FG: an essential part of charity is selflessness, as in no [intention of] personal benefit 18:47:40 Right 18:53:18 so the word you're looking for is altruism, I think 18:56:46 "Altruism is a motivation to provide something of value to a party who must be anyone but one's self" 18:57:19 asdfasdfsdfasdfasdf why does this module not do what its source says it does... 18:57:23 It seems that "value" there might be perceived (by self) as a "bad thing", not "good" 18:57:58 observations say that all messages with type 'chat' are caught in 'message' event 18:58:08 source disagrees, says that all messages are caught in 'messages' event full stop 18:58:18 so.. where the hell are my non-chat messages going? 18:58:39 I wonder if there's a word for the person doing "bad" altruistic action - "sadist" seem to imply some pleasure to self... 19:11:34 what do you mean bad altruistic? 19:11:52 value is of the person receiving, not giving 19:12:07 it's not altruism if you're not actually helping them 19:12:47 *** wh1t3r4bb1t has quit (Connection reset by peer) 19:13:57 "motivation to provide something of value" seem to imply otherwise 19:14:06 there are certain interpretations of altruism which frame it as a self-centered behavior, even 19:14:13 I'm not using your defintion 19:14:17 :P 19:14:56 You didn't provde yours yet arguing on terminology, sir troll! ;) 19:15:12 yours is shitty and materially centered 19:15:15 :P 19:15:29 sec, lemme grab my psych book 19:15:49 I don't see "value" as necessary something material 19:16:00 So I don't see why it'd be "materially centered" 19:16:11 providing something of value is to me quite clearly material 19:16:32 *** wh1t3r4bb1t (antarctica@wh1t3r4bb1t.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 19:16:33 because if it weren't, it would be closer to "selfless helping behavior" 19:18:06 Not sure what dd you mean by the latter 19:18:39 selfless means without regard to yourself 19:18:44 But I seem to assign "value" to things like "happiness", "peace" and such 19:18:59 So interpret the thing differently ;) 19:19:17 Btw, I pulled that definition from wikipedia 19:20:31 yeah, so here's the definition my book uses (and the one I use myself): "unselfish behavior that benefits others without regard to consequences for the self" 19:21:06 I do not like the use of value 19:21:15 in your def 19:21:38 Yeah, it can mean different things like that 19:22:05 if it's valuable you can put a dollar number on it, and the whole point of altruism is that you are NOT putting a dollar sign on it 19:22:28 and indeed the altruistic person can be harmed by their actions 19:23:17 Well, "unselfish behavior that benefits others" can be "give other last $100", right? 19:23:23 So you can put $ in there! ;) 19:23:50 perhaps, but as I say, the value to the receiving person may be much greater than the 100$ given 19:24:14 perhaps that 100$ lets them keep a car, which allows them to continue working 19:24:21 that value is then much greater than merely 100 19:24:31 so, it's silly to quantify it on dollars 19:24:32 :P 19:25:33 It's not always appicable, yeah, hence I don't agree with "if it's valuable you can put a dollar number on it" 19:26:36 which is why I do not like using value in the definition. it gets into semantics when you don't need to 19:27:57 "unselfish behavior that benefits others" in the definition above seems incomplete though 19:28:16 why 19:28:39 well also you forgot "without regard for self" 19:28:41 but, why 19:28:53 If it's unintentional benefit to others due to action "without regard to consequences for the self" 19:29:33 Like, you want to harm party A "without regard..."... 19:29:40 I would not say intentions matter 19:29:49 ...and that ends up benefitting party B 19:29:50 when making heros here, we do not consider intentions 19:29:52 only the outcome 19:30:15 It's hard to say that one's altruistic towards B in that case ;) 19:30:24 then it was not altruistic! you keep coming up with scenarios where some party other than yourself is harmed. that cannot be altruism. 19:30:57 it's helping others. 19:31:11 Hm, so it's "unselfish behavior that benefits ALL THE others without regard to consequences for the self" 19:31:25 that's what others means 19:31:30 *** anonymous has quit (Ping timeout) 19:31:30 benefits 19:31:33 Not to me, apparently 19:31:37 it does not say sometimes benefits 19:31:47 :P 19:31:49 *** anonymous (anonymous@12E58B87.DA3E8586.A0534C64.IP) has joined #crytocc 19:32:12 think... pareto optimisation for helping 19:32:15 Ok, reverse example time! 19:32:36 One helps poor kids however one can... 19:32:48 ...and they survive, consuming one in the process 19:32:55 ...but then go and do horrible things 19:33:06 So net benefit to others is hugely negative! 19:33:20 your examples suck 19:33:28 you have at least two different scopes there 19:33:44 scope for society, scope for individuals, scope for time 19:34:10 you helped them without regard to self, that is altruism 19:34:19 why would you be responsible for what they did after that? 19:34:26 Without thinking about the broader picture? 19:34:33 that makes no sense 19:34:52 you're asking everyone to predict the future? 19:34:55 I can say only a few people are capable of seeing that clear enough to act on it 19:35:06 You can, yeah 19:35:31 and in that case, you must decide if you're interested in individual benefit or collective benefit 19:35:44 the USA for example, is not so supportive of collective benefit 19:35:58 hence being one of the only first world countries with no universal healthcare system 19:36:04 Short-sighted altruism seem to be "altruism" to me, but is evil 19:36:33 I'm sure the poor people helped would be very grateful for not dying 19:36:48 or homeless or whatever their bad-case might be 19:37:28 and yes, there are arguments around this all :D 19:37:54 Yeah, healthcare thing is quite controversal 19:37:57 there is an argument (due to understandings of how people think) that says altruism can be a wholly selfish behavior 19:38:19 because some people derive pleasure from others being happy 19:38:28 so, they altruistically help others... but it's so they're happy 19:38:34 Otherwise why'd they do it? 19:38:38 so is it really altruism? :) 19:38:55 it often does not make me happy to help other people, but I do it 19:39:15 I thnk you might be lying there 19:39:15 I think helping as many people as possible will make society better 19:39:20 it's for collective good, not my own 19:39:32 I guess I benefit slightly from it, but in the long term 19:39:33 not short 19:40:09 You like doing the good thing for collective above doing good thing for self, so you get net-positive selfish behavior 19:40:37 (given that one good conflicts with the other) 19:40:41 yeah, and that's the argument against altruism being truly altruistic :P 19:40:55 your collective benefit is self benefitting 19:41:01 Teh evil altruists 19:41:04 :P 19:42:35 I mean yeah, the benefits I want to create are for everyone alive, which includes me :P 19:42:48 Ok, what I got out of it is that (once again) meta discussions about human behavior suck 19:42:53 but the amount of work required for the benefit I will see from it is not commensurate 19:43:01 hahah yes 19:43:05 it's fun though 19:43:06 ...as they never lead to anything 19:43:15 but it's good to know 19:43:37 once you learn there are no truths, you begin to see things as they are (irony is not lost on me) 19:44:08 but this view is not for everyone 19:44:18 it will be of great benefit to me if I work at supra-national level 19:44:52 "no truths" indeed seem to be an objective thing in itself, hence "the truth" 19:44:57 :P 19:45:03 Or how to say it, "abstract" 19:45:07 yeah 19:45:27 the only truths are abstract, I would agree with that :P 19:45:52 even mathematics, which is very good, has things which cannot be proven true or false 19:47:17 But then they just make no sense in the context where that's the case, no? 19:47:47 So you narrow the context down and - whoosh - they are provable one way or the other there 19:48:19 probably :) 19:48:41