00:37:22 bbl mates 00:37:50 *** why_slap_option has quit (Input/output error) 00:50:54 http://nowaynsa.com/ 00:52:52 According to a recent NSA memo, 1.6% of all online activity is monitored and collected. That’s enough to capture more than 50% of all internet communications. 00:52:54 huh? 00:53:07 hops. 00:53:16 oh wait, nevermind, it makes sense 00:53:16 :P 00:53:51 but 1.6% of online activity accounts for 50% of internet traffic? 00:55:12 a significant portion of internet traffic is not web browsing 00:55:44 yes 00:55:59 but i can't imagine that the nsa would, for example be interested in bittorrent traffic 00:56:22 most of the intesting traffic is not bulk data transfers 00:56:23 probably not, but if you're sort and pitching traffic as it comes in, you get to pitch torrent traffic 00:56:26 you still see it 00:56:57 it still doesn't explain how 1.6% of online activity accounts for 50% of internet traffic 00:57:10 unless that activity is bittorrent 00:57:16 hops. 00:57:19 which in that case, that website is being silly :P 00:58:04 joepie91: what? 00:58:21 I would blame it on weasel wording more than anything. THey use... "funny" definitions of everything. Internet traffic is not defined. Internet communications isn't either. Hell, we've had a lot of problems pinning down what "monitored and collected" means, even. 00:58:23 I am guessing that they are counting "activity" as "a packet flows through a device" 00:58:38 joepie91: that still doesn't explain it 00:58:50 which means that for every packet you send somewhere, it goes through several hops and generates "online activity" several times 00:59:15 and probably several of those situations 00:59:23 either way, I am going to brb 01:01:06 joepie91: then surely that would mean % online activity is greater than % internet traffic 01:01:25 so that for example, 75% of online activity accounts for 50% of internet traffic 01:02:44 It makes a lot more sense if you reverse those numbers, and if that applies to the original it means web browsing is only perhaps 3.2% of the total volume of data flowing across the internet (using their numbers) 01:03:01 but, fucking words 01:03:03 lol 01:03:23 yes, it would 01:04:05 when the tracker for the pirate bay got raided pre-DHT, Europe's internet traffic dropped by 50% 01:04:07 and if you're instantly discounting... file transfers and movies, and subsequently the random non-http data, that doesn't sound wrong to me 01:04:17 yeah, I heard about that :D 01:04:50 though pages are huge these days, html and js and such are still rather small comparatively 01:04:51 iirc 01:05:02 [02:04:04] when the tracker for the pirate bay got raided pre-DHT, Europe's internet traffic dropped by 50% 01:05:02 [02:04:23] * Disconnected 01:05:02 [02:04:36] * Rejoined channel #crytocc 01:05:02 [02:04:36] * Topic is 'Cryto Coding Collective | THIS IS A PUBLICLY LOGGED CHANNEL. http://wire.cryto.net/logs | http://cryto.net/, http://forums.cryto.net/ | Rules: no Anonymous, no cracking, no drama | Online Flash IDE: http://wonderfl.net/about/ | Cryto Research: http://research.cryto.net/ | RIP Aaron Swartz' 01:05:02 [02:04:36] * Set by joepie91 on Wed Feb 06 23:40:17 01:05:02 [02:04:49] though pages are huge these days, html and js and such are still rather small comparatively 01:05:05 pinged out 01:05:26 and if you're instantly discounting... file transfers and movies, and subsequently the random non-http data, that doesn't sound wrong to me 01:05:26 yeah, I heard about that :D 01:05:26 though pages are huge these days, html and js and such are still rather small comparatively 01:05:30 also, 01:05:34 loggy, pointer? 01:05:34 http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-08-13#T01-05-34 01:06:56 well it is pretty amazing how 1 or 2 servers running a tracker are responsible for 50% of a continent's traffic 01:07:09 yeah. crazy shit. 01:07:34 hmm, I wonder if I can turn dht on here 01:07:38 * lady-3jane tries it 01:08:09 dht can be turned on anywhere 01:08:10 * lady-3jane prepares for the router to die 01:08:15 nah I just moved 01:08:19 no need to listen for connections 01:08:22 or open ports 01:08:22 old network hardware died from dht 01:08:49 which reminds me 01:08:59 I want to see if it's possible to make dht supernodes or something 01:09:03 I haven't read the spec yet >< 01:10:30 woop 01:10:38 there are academic papers on selecting supernodes 01:11:32 i get the feeling that dht is more vulnerable than it makes out to be 01:11:49 i have yet to find any good documentation of DHT 01:12:27 Yeah, that's why I'm looking at setting up a dht box 01:12:34 I want to see if it's possible, and if it is, do it 01:13:02 I'm pretty sure skype's old system was modeled after it 01:14:24 I'm curious as to how DHT nodes bootstrap 01:14:40 they all run bootstrap routers 01:14:55 bittorrent inc runs one, as does transmissionbt 01:15:03 I'd bet vuze does too 01:15:10 so it's not really decentralised then, is it? 01:15:13 though they use kademila dht or whatever 01:15:13 no 01:15:21 it's dht after you bootstrap 01:15:24 that's the one issue 01:15:28 big fuckin issue though 01:15:39 so I can see why they might like to keep the protocol poorly documented 01:15:52 http://bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0005.html 01:15:57 that's bittorrent inc's dht 01:16:00 it's an easy target for the music industry 01:18:28 I suppose I'll have to compile and test https://github.com/spikebike/supernode 01:18:49 runs on go, so that shouldn't be hard 01:18:57 is go, whatever 01:19:00 that grammared wrong 01:19:45 it would be interesting to create an online database of all the hashes/torrents in dht 01:20:49 yes it would :) 01:22:00 sort of like a torrent site with an ad-hoc database 01:22:04 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Network#Bootstrapping 01:22:11 Bitcoin looks up the IP Addresses of several host names and adds those to the list of potential addresses. This is the default seeding mechanism, as of v0.6.x and later. 01:22:12 eww 01:22:58 yeah 01:23:17 this whole bootstrapping thing is a giant pain, but the alternative is even harder 01:23:42 ipv6 tries to do routerless bootstrapping, and it's where all the vulnerabilities in it are 01:28:12 ipv6 has a built-in p2p bootstrapping method? 01:30:10 sorta, it's part of how you self assign a globally unique address 01:31:34 hmm... another thing that I'm _very_ curious by 01:32:01 is the method that peers pass on their peer list by 01:32:18 no, you pretty much just ask everyone else if it's cool 01:32:26 in theory, without a central 'coordinator', the network isn't going to be 'evenly distributed' 01:32:31 my memory is foggy, so sorry about a lack of detail 01:32:36 i have yet to find any good documentation of DHT 01:32:39 it was several years ago and I haven't touched it since 01:32:41 that is probably because DHT is not one protocol 01:32:54 it's a class of protocols 01:33:05 an example DHT protocol is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kademlia 01:33:14 oh 01:33:15 which is the one btt uses 01:33:17 lady-3jane mentioned that 01:33:20 * joepie91 is still reading backlog 01:33:23 yus :> 01:33:44 so 01:34:02 kademlia is what btt et all use, except vuze. vuze uses their own, but they ship a plugin which does kademlia compatible dht 01:34:16 well, that makes sense, though I suppose I was talking about bittorrent dht 01:34:18 aka "mainline dht" 01:34:26 the problem with decentralized without bootstrapping is... how are you going to figure out nodes? 01:34:30 by portscanning every single IP? 01:34:35 joepie91: exactly 01:34:39 it's a major problem 01:34:42 ^ that's why they have the bootstrap boxes 01:34:51 there is no good solution 01:34:57 pretty much 01:35:01 it's simply information you don't have 01:35:02 i've read quite a few academic papers on the problem 01:35:05 btt dht doesn't touch their shit after the initial spin up... 01:35:06 and have no way of acquiring 01:35:07 and all the solutions are shitty 01:35:08 decentralized 01:35:14 aye 01:35:16 lady-3jane: cache probably 01:35:24 cache? 01:35:28 hell, if I'm not mistaken WinMX used to do that 01:35:28 yes 01:35:34 bootstrtap via external servers 01:35:36 I've lost context 01:35:37 bootstrap * 01:35:40 then keep track of peers 01:35:43 oh, yeah 01:35:46 to survive application restarts 01:35:51 ohhhhh 01:35:52 cache all peers locally 01:35:55 * lady-3jane gets what you're saying 01:35:56 check if they're still alive after restart 01:35:58 * lady-3jane flails 01:36:03 yes 01:36:05 and only fall back to bootstrap server if all known peers are dead 01:36:14 I think WinMX had something like that. 01:36:15 and a smart addition would be node trading between active peers 01:36:20 the WPNP protocol 01:36:35 (WPNP is horribly badly documented though, proprietary protocol) 01:36:37 lady-3jane: yes 01:36:41 er 01:36:44 trying to find this paper 01:36:47 on p2p botnets 01:36:52 which had an interesting solution 01:36:56 do it, we'll wait :) 01:36:59 or, I will 01:36:59 :) 01:37:21 but in the mean time, there is something that I am stumped by with the current bitcoin/dht/etc implementatins: 01:37:31 http://xmwx.org/xmwx.wpnp.htm 01:38:14 the hard part about dht is that it requires state. that's what you're bootstrapping 01:38:44 the tougher question is how would one design a stateless distributed protocol? I'm sure it exists. 01:39:05 When Bitcoin peers pass on their peer lists to other peers, how does the network remain "even" without central coordination? In theory, the first peer, should have a significantly larger amount of peers than the last peer, let's say 10000x, because it has been exposed to the network for longer 01:39:06 (probably tons of em, I just don't poke around for such things) 01:39:28 lysobit: I vaguely remember that having something to do with the hashes 01:39:39 *** osso (kvirc@cryto-F0DA0300.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br) has joined #crytocc 01:39:41 yeah there's a randomization in a weighted tree? 01:39:42 similar concept to... redis? sharding 01:39:50 that sounds like the right set of words thrown together 01:39:50 lol 01:39:59 lol 01:40:02 haha 01:40:14 somewhat ironically, I'm probably pretty close 01:40:23 do google and tell me how wrong I am 01:40:24 lol 01:40:29 hey budies.. i'm new here 01:40:30 from memory, so I may be wrong 01:40:35 brasilian 01:40:43 I think the idea was that based on the peer ID, it would divide users into groups 01:40:46 and pick users from that 01:40:52 *** LastOneStanding (AnonLOS@5C0B2CEF.B458528D.147E7205.IP) has joined #crytocc 01:40:55 hai osso, welcome to #crytocc, please be sure to read the channel topic 01:41:17 also, be aware that this channel is publicly logged, and you can keep things out of the public logs by prefixing it with [off] 01:41:25 the channel rules are also in the channel topic 01:41:33 loggy, pointer? 01:41:33 http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-08-13#T01-41-33 01:41:39 *** x (foobar@91513BE6.1FF3EB83.C789C8B2.IP) has joined #crytocc 01:42:03 yeah.. i already read. I stay 1 hour on that page without know what to do 01:42:22 after i realize the channels thing 01:43:04 i think no 01:43:58 yes, that's doing it right 01:44:01 also, what page? 01:46:31 jesus christ 01:46:45 Yes? 01:46:46 there has been an _explosion_ in p2p botnet research since the last time i checked 2 years ago 01:47:04 I think there's been an explosion in p2p botnet usage, as well 01:47:04 :P 01:48:46 certainly an article worth reading: https://moot.it/blog/technology/redis-as-primary-datastore-wtf.html 01:49:41 sounds like a "positives outweigh negatives" article 01:49:44 * lady-3jane sets to read 01:49:46 ... so I do right, because i thinked that i had to put [off] on the name of the channel... like [off]#crytocc 01:49:59 oh 01:50:03 just put [off] before text? 01:50:06 yes 01:50:07 yep! 01:50:12 loggy, pointer? 01:50:12 http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-08-13#T01-50-12 01:50:16 ^ 01:50:20 if you look at that page now, you'll see that "just like this" isn't in there 01:54:56 *** x has quit (Input/output error) 01:56:24 *** x (foobar@BF9A7830.93D77D28.7035584F.IP) has joined #crytocc 01:57:09 sorry josepie... but i dont understand what u mean to say 01:57:20 can be because my poor english 01:57:36 lady-3jane : perhaps you can explain better? 01:58:40 in adicion.. how to link a nickname? 01:59:15 sorry about my noobies... i'm new 01:59:28 https://www.usenix.org/legacy/event/hotbots07/tech/full_papers/wang/wang.pdf 01:59:34 link to a username? 01:59:42 I think he means a highlight 01:59:48 oh, just type it 01:59:49 / autocomplete 01:59:50 "Due to this phenomenon, connections to servent bots are extremely unbalanced: more than 80% (4000) of servent bots have degrees less than 30, while each of the 21 initial servent bots have a degree between 14,000 and 17,500. This is not an ideal botnet." 02:00:01 >14,000 - 17,500 connections 02:00:07 free ddos :P 02:02:05 anyway, time to sleep 02:02:56 goodnight lysobit 02:03:06 osso: I think that what you mean is also autocompleting 02:03:12 you can do that by typing the first few characters, and then pressing tab 02:03:16 like this: 02:03:18 os 02:03:24 it will fill in the rest for you 02:03:29 yeahh 02:03:39 was this that i want to measn 02:03:51 and this "/" 02:04:06 i typed / and your nickmane 02:04:10 / is for commands 02:04:16 nono, just the name 02:04:20 osso:) ! 02:04:22 and appears [RAW]: josepie91 02:04:25 os 02:04:42 okok 02:04:49 now i understand 02:04:53 thaks a lot budies 02:05:13 no problem :) 02:06:06 i found this channel on the freenet 02:06:17 very interesting 02:06:33 all this DW shits 02:06:34 hahah 02:07:49 eh? 02:10:58 osso: DW? 02:11:11 deep web 02:12:04 on they call of second layer... we use freenet, and they advise to we use this irc to talk 02:12:20 that's interesting 02:13:53 ahh :P 02:13:57 right 02:14:03 yeah, that's probably because Cryto doesn't block TOR 02:16:44 man 02:16:47 i should really go to sleep 02:16:56 but i've been talking to this blind programmer on freenode 02:17:02 pretty interesting 02:17:16 apparantly he makes guis 02:17:22 i don't _think_ i'm being trolled 02:17:33 lysobit: that... is unusual 02:17:54 he says that making the gui is just math and geometry 02:18:16 which actually, makes sense 02:20:15 *** why_slap_option (thespartan@B6238662.680BA07C.DE6EDE27.IP) has joined #crytocc 02:20:23 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/118984/how-can-you-program-if-youre-blind 02:20:32 okay, time to sleep for reals 02:29:38 bye too 02:29:43 peace and love 02:29:46 haha 02:31:09 night lysobit 02:33:00 nigh 02:33:01 t 02:33:48 *** osso has quit (User quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 02:58:47 *** Ari (Ari@Ari.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 03:05:47 *** x has quit (Ping timeout) 03:47:23 *** why_slap_option has quit (Input/output error) 04:12:41 *** Yolo has quit (Ping timeout) 04:14:19 *** Yolo (nomnomops@cryto-EAA362A4.perfect-privacy.com) has joined #crytocc 05:14:58 *** Ari has quit (User quit: sleeping whatever) 05:17:32 *** osso (kvirc@cryto-F0DA0300.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br) has joined #crytocc 05:36:23 *** osso has quit (User quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 06:15:16 *** LastOneStanding has quit (Input/output error) 07:50:22 *** ilikeapricot has quit (Ping timeout) 08:45:25 *** ilikeapricot (app@ilikeapricot.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 10:44:27 *** monod (~pmpf@monod.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 10:44:33 lurking with you guys 10:55:27 Bon giorno 10:55:34 come stai 10:56:05 (and just bash me because of my poor Italian :) ) 10:56:17 WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 10:56:18 hahahah 10:56:26 I do bash you in the name of the queen. 10:56:32 fine thanks 10:56:41 are you working hard today? :) 10:58:19 Hardly :) 10:58:23 but I try to mimic it 10:58:24 :) 10:58:57 I am just grabbing some tunes for my work 10:59:03 http://www.djmix.com 11:02:05 "Hardly :)" haha lulz 11:02:23 di-di-di-dinner t-time! 11:02:28 *afk* 11:06:39 Bon appetit 11:32:14 ala 12:52:21 *** ElectRo` has quit (Client exited) 12:57:53 *** ElectRo` (x@cryto-5A84CAEB.solidonetworks.com) has joined #crytocc 14:22:04 *** botpie91 (botpie91@5C4B2CE4.B8E60B3B.FD9B6484.IP) has joined #crytocc 14:22:07 .bitcoin 14:22:07 1 BTC = $105.72, 1 BTC = €78.60 14:22:49 it's been nice and stable lately 14:23:18 I am still amazed, that Bitcoin is still interesting :) 14:25:02 norbert79: hmm? 14:26:05 It's just still a mistery and seems very unreliable for me 14:26:20 Must be me 14:26:55 how does it seem unreliable? 14:28:07 That it stays alive, or it's exchange rate... it's like something you can't use every day 14:28:10 yet 14:30:03 norbert79: what reason do you see for it not to continue existing? 14:30:26 I mean, the operating costs are effectively zero, the only operating costs come from those using the network 14:30:40 therefore non-usage is not a reason for it to stop existing 14:30:45 (assuming that were the case) 14:31:18 and as for not being able to use it every day; there's actually quite a few things accepting BTC nowadays 14:31:23 even a bunch of online food stores 14:31:25 so, not so sure about that :) 14:31:36 Look, BTC is not something you get as payment for your work, it's very time consuming to understand and find it's value and right now there is no place on the web where I could use it 14:31:52 at least regarding my interested or my place 14:31:52 that's several points 14:32:42 1. Japanese Yen are also not something you get as payment for your work - that does not discount its existence. There's a few organizations now that pay (part of) their stuff to employees in Bitcoin, if employee so desires. 14:32:47 *** zxcvbnm (~crack7765@zxcvbnm.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 14:33:55 2. BTC is less time-consuming to understand than a traditional banking system. If you just want to use it, downloading a client basically suffices. If you go to a bank, you have to read a bunch of documents, get stuff explained to you, etc. If you are interested in the inner workings of the fiat currency system, then good luck figuring out and it's probably going to cost you half a lifetime. With casual reading 14:33:56 and learning, the inner workings of Bitcoin can be picked up in a month. 14:34:13 3. Are you -sure- that there's no relevant place on the web where you can use it? 14:34:17 Yes 14:34:21 very positive 14:34:22 :) 14:34:38 Looks like I stepped into the right converstaion! 14:34:43 so you've checked all your daily expenses against a list of Bitcoin-accepting merchants? 14:34:48 I can't buy food with it, I pay my hosting with paypal... 14:34:58 Look, my daily is mostly almost food only 14:35:29 but let me ask you the same: where do you pay with BTC 14:35:37 and for what 14:35:47 norbert79: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Consumables 14:35:49 food 14:36:00 Not Italian 14:36:10 ... try actually looking through the list first 14:36:31 None of them applies for me 14:36:34 I don't access domains unless they're in my local country, sry joepie 14:36:58 None of the listed shops are present in my country 14:37:03 also, norbert79: I pay for the Humble Bundle with BTC, I've grabbed a few things from CoinDL in the past, and if I weren't so cheap about my hosting I could've gotten hosting paid in Bitcoin 14:37:15 and that makes up nearly all of my daily expenses 14:37:34 None of the listed shops are present in my country 14:37:41 I'm pretty sure that at least one of them shipped internationally. 14:37:45 bitcoin.hu buy or sell bitcoins with others in Hungary using cash (Hungarian Forint, HUF) 14:38:25 Sure, but that's not the point right now, it's just something I don't wish to use or learn until it spreads more, and shows being reliable 14:38:34 until then I am fine with current currencies :) 14:40:20 norbert79: that's something -very- different from "noone relevant accepts BTC" 14:40:38 Not at all... Does TESCO accept BTC? :) 14:40:43 or generic stores? 14:41:09 wait, are you saying that "I don't wish to use it or learn it" is *not* something different from "noone relevant accepts it"? 14:41:15 that those two phrases are exactly the same? 14:41:30 and what exactly constitutes "shows being reliable" for you? 14:41:46 No, look, why to spend time with something which takes a lot of time and actually gaining basically nothing of it? 14:41:46 how many total economy crashes with Bitcoin happily chugging along are needed to show that? 14:42:35 right now BTC is not being accepted as official currency ... 14:42:36 apart from that not being related to the original point made ("it seems unreliable"), are you aware of the advantages of BTC over typical government-issued currencies? 14:42:43 official by whose standards? 14:43:04 and in what definition of "official"? 14:43:40 Again, as told, until regular stores are not being interested in BTC why should I be doing different? What's the point? I am interested in raising a family, not playing around with something I basically can't use only for maybe exchangin some goods... 14:43:48 Also, let's say I wish to buy an e-book 14:43:57 norbert79: you're running away from the questions and repeating what you said earlier 14:44:00 answer the questions first 14:44:04 I did 14:44:08 no, you didn't 14:44:12 apart from that not being related to the original point made ("it seems unreliable"), are you aware of the advantages of BTC over typical government-issued currencies? 14:44:12 official by whose standards? 14:44:12 and in what definition of "official"? 14:44:26 Can you use BTC in a bank? 14:44:35 can you get your monthly payment in BTC? 14:44:35 that is a question, not an answer 14:44:37 that is a question, not an answer 14:44:42 sure, but that's my point 14:44:46 it has no use 14:44:50 not for every day life 14:44:51 norbert79: I've asked you three questions 14:44:55 you refuse to answer them 14:45:00 instead choosing to repeat how Bitcoin is useless to you 14:45:04 these are basic questions 14:45:06 No, I just don't understand why those questions and how are relevant? 14:45:12 questions that are -not- affected by whether you believe Bitcoin works or not 14:45:21 I go to the store, I use, as you called, government issues currency 14:45:25 period 14:45:30 because they accept that only 14:45:33 norbert79: perhaps you'd figure out why they are relevant if you answered them and let me respond to that? 14:45:44 You are just overcomplicating this 14:45:57 norbert79: you have just indicated that "Bitcoin is still a mystery to you" 14:46:07 what exactly makes you think you are more qualified to judge the relevance of my questions, than me? 14:46:21 yeah... Indeed, but you see I have just spent 15 minutes on the topic and I still clueless :) 14:46:27 norbert79: you know why? 14:46:42 because you're too busy telling me how you're not going to use it and how there's no use in it for you and how it's a mystery and unreliable etc. etc. etc. 14:46:45 to actually have a conversation 14:46:48 and learn the things you didn't know yet 14:47:00 But why should I? What's the point of using BTC? 14:47:20 norbert79: that's what I've been trying to explain to you, but you ignore my questions. 14:47:40 that makes it impossible to explain it accurately. 14:47:56 Nono, you don't get it... Bitcoin is not something you can use for every day use, so why should I spend time into it? 14:48:01 norbert79: that's what I've been trying to explain to you, but you ignore my questions. 14:48:02 that makes it impossible to explain it accurately. 14:48:13 norbert79: you are ignoring my response 14:48:13 again 14:48:18 will you please stop doing that, ffs 14:48:23 Right, I am just aksing what I would gain from it, and you basically call me an idiot, thanks :) 14:48:30 no, I'm not 14:48:31 jesus 14:48:38 norbert79: WILL YOU PLEASE ALREADY FUCKING READ WHAT I AM SAYING 14:48:42 I did! 14:48:44 YOU ARE BEING PURPOSEFULLY THICK RIGHT NOW 14:48:45 no 14:48:48 you fucking didn't 14:48:50 jesus christ 14:48:55 norbert79 14:48:55 listen 14:48:58 listen very carefully 14:49:24 if YOU want to know what the point of Bitcoin is and what the advantages of using it are, then _I_ need to know how far YOUR understanding of Bitcoin reaches and what information about it you are missing 14:49:32 that means that when _I_ ask a question, I need _YOU_ to answer it 14:49:38 instead of constantly saying "but that's irrelevant" 14:49:40 clear enough? 14:50:08 And on the other point is, that you listed a few stores, which are almost all outside of Europe... Why should I then spend time learning about it? 14:50:12 I am serious 14:50:15 okay, I give up 14:50:15 not trolling 14:50:28 norbert79: I don't care whether you're trolling or not 14:50:37 as long as you keep repeating the same question without absorbing the answer 14:50:44 there is absolutely no way I can explain anything to you 14:50:45 What's the win in BTC aside of having a few stores where I could use it... I also question their prices 14:50:46 without going insane 14:50:50 and my time is better spent doing other things 14:50:54 Then do so 14:50:57 It's okay 14:51:15 and norbert79, I strongly recommend you be a bit less fucking defensive 14:51:17 I really thank you for your time, but I really don't get this Bitcoin and I probably never will use it 14:51:56 you are perfectly capable of understanding Bitcoin, but your existing judgment of it being "unreliable" (judged basically by lack of information) and your determination to dislike it from the get-go is what keeps you from even being able to learn more about it 14:52:10 because you see literally EVERYTHING that is said about it by default in a perspective of "bad" and "irrelevant" 14:52:42 Nono, don't get me wrong, I would be interested, but you see we have already spent a lot of time talking about it, and looking at the possibilities where I could use it makes it not really worth spending time on the topic 14:53:05 I mean almost everywhere where I have ordered things from is mostly accwepting regular currencies 14:53:14 Does Paypal work with BTC? 14:53:56 also, as an example... 14:53:58 .bitcoin 14:53:59 1 BTC = $106.01, 1 BTC = €78.71 14:54:04 so it's 106 14:54:16 ok, so https://www.coindl.com/page/item/450 costs 0.4 BTC 14:54:28 Where the hardcopy here: http://www.amazon.com/The-Original-Counter-Argument-Ratification-Constitution/dp/147745067X 14:54:35 costs $13.49 14:55:03 So why spending 0.4 BTC which makes $42.4 14:55:07 norbert79: For your reading pleasure, Paypal is considering using bitcoin. So, it is possible in the near future it is something you will see in a day to day live. http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/24/paypal-president-is-fascinated-by-bitcoin-says-company-is-thinking-about-including-the-virtual-currency/ 14:55:10 where I could get a hardcopy for less 14:55:20 zxcvbnm: Nice, that would be interesting 14:56:08 but you see the above example raises questions for me about what I could gain from using BTC 14:56:21 of course that was just one example 14:56:24 from one store 14:56:27 mhm 14:56:35 In the short term, it is not very accessible, IMO 14:56:40 sure 14:56:44 That's my point 14:57:15 In the long term, it is likely a good thing. As an investment, it would be interesting to see where it will settle 14:57:31 The history of its value vs the dollar is quite volatile 14:57:37 from < $1 to > $300 14:57:41 So was the Euro too 14:57:56 but you see right now BTC seems to be more being an expense instead of an investment 14:58:02 at least for me 14:58:19 maybe if I would offer service, then it would be different 14:58:35 but as a regular user and a simple guy it seems more like an expense for me 14:58:36 Unless you're savvy to it, it probably is more of a hassle to try and convert it and find something to do with it 14:58:55 Unless of course you're very concerned about anonymity of your online purchases 14:59:00 but you see, that's the point, I don't have either the financial status or the time for spending time in exchaning it 14:59:09 At which point, the hassle becomes worth it 14:59:13 Look, the stuff you buy must be delivered to you, right? :) 14:59:24 Unless it's digital, then you still need to give and address 14:59:25 Well, if it is something tangible 14:59:25 an 14:59:27 right 14:59:39 There are obvious pros and cons 14:59:41 and right now all digital offers seem to be overpriced for me 14:59:48 check my previous example 14:59:56 To me -- I don't look at it right now as a "better" currency 15:00:05 It is basically just, another currency, albeit new and experimental 15:00:13 I look at it as a investment 15:00:25 it's interesting, but also frightening, that there is no basic control about it. Also it's weird, how bitcoins are mined 15:00:33 http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/08/12/every-important-person-in-bitcoin-just-got-subpoenaed-by-new-yorks-financial-regulator/ 15:00:33 but still it's not something which goes more 15:00:40 Regulation is coming 15:00:42 so it's just something mind-bogling for me :) 15:01:07 so right now we could call it as digital gold 15:01:11 mhm 15:01:13 but gold has it's history too 15:01:16 I think thats fair 15:01:20 or 15:01:22 it could be 15:01:29 digital beanie babies 15:01:32 lol :D 15:01:34 and also it confuses me how prices are being defined 15:01:38 or that :)) 15:01:42 that confuses me too 15:02:09 so while joepie91 had lost his patience he could have spend time to understand my point too 15:02:11 but, value for a currency is all an idea anyway. some of it is "backed" by gold 15:02:17 the perspective of an every day guy 15:02:21 concerned on his money 15:02:25 mhm 15:02:25 a family guy basically 15:02:42 and these are the every day things I was referring to 15:03:15 Yeah, unless there was an immediate advantage to buying with BTC; like -- a 10% discount 15:03:15 having a few stores is nice, but I could get their products also elsewhere, and probably cheaper 15:03:20 Yes 15:03:22 for example 15:03:41 people need a base where they can compare prices to 15:03:48 like anyone does when buying something abroad 15:03:54 and BTC is trying to ignore all that 15:04:04 which makes it less interesting 15:04:11 and less reliable in the eyes of the people 15:04:18 It is not streamline and mainstream, that much is a fact 15:04:57 So yes, by nature of that fact, unless you're adept at living off the grid and anonymously, day to day use of BTC would likely be more of a hassle than good 15:05:05 Exactly 15:05:12 This is all conjecture, btw. 15:05:24 but still, people are looking for stability 15:05:31 and BTC is right now everything, but stable :) 15:05:50 or being capable for every day usxe 15:05:58 like take a debit card 15:06:05 with a debit card you know what you can expect 15:06:22 if you could make debit cards based on open standards 15:06:24 for BTC 15:06:30 that would give a boost for BTX 15:06:32 BTC 15:06:33 Nono, don't get me wrong, I would be interested, but you see we have already spent a lot of time talking about it, and looking at the possibilities where I could use it makes it not really worth spending time on the topic 15:06:36 and this is exactly the problem 15:06:47 without even understanding Bitcoin, you've already made a conclusion 15:06:53 one that you refuse to be superseded by anything else you may hear 15:06:57 let be* 15:06:59 I only see the prices joepie91 15:07:06 and those doesn't make BTC more charming for me 15:07:17 and BTC is right now everything, but stable :) 15:07:17 or being capable for every day usxe 15:07:26 I would recommend you stop making claims based on lack of knowledge/understanding 15:07:29 norbert79: Aye, regulation is probably ~2 years out for the U.S., probably sooner for EU 15:07:36 so while joepie91 had lost his patience he could have spend time to understand my point too 15:07:48 THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO BY ASKING QUESTIONS THAT YOU THEN DIDN'T ANSWER. 15:07:56 joepie91: Look at the prices... and bitcoin exchange rates are changing way too hectic to call it stable 15:08:05 norbert79: dude 15:08:07 are you blind 15:08:10 no 15:08:11 you are literally doing what I just described above 15:08:17 you're not even REALLY responding to what I said 15:08:21 without even understanding Bitcoin, you've already made a conclusion 15:08:21 one that you refuse to be superseded by anything else you may hear 15:08:29 your conclusion is already made 15:08:32 why should I buy something digital for 3x the price where I could get the same for cheaper and hardcopy? 15:08:42 you are not going to learn anything because you've already made a conclusion, and you try to fit everything you hear in there somewhere 15:08:46 your conclusion is already determined 15:08:53 there is no way to change your conclusion 15:08:56 You still didn't answer my question 15:08:57 why should I buy something digital for 3x the price where I could get the same for cheaper and hardcopy? 15:08:58 your conclusion is based on incomplete data 15:09:06 you have a set conclusion that you refuse to let others alter with more information 15:09:11 have I phrased it in enough variations now to be clear? 15:09:21 and right now you are avoiding the answer 15:09:24 or are you still going to ignore what I am saying? 15:09:29 I am talking about conclusions, not about Bitcoibn 15:09:35 any response that involves Bitcoin is off-topic 15:10:07 did I mention that you have already made up your mind, made a conclusion based on incomplete data, and refuse to let others dispute that conclusion? 15:10:10 joepie91: Again, no offense, but don't analyze me... I was talking about Bitcoin the whole time... 15:10:18 you are just playing Freud right now 15:10:24 go back to the topic please :) 15:10:33 oh, of course, let's throw a personal attack 15:10:39 Lol??? 15:10:43 instead of actually trying to acknowledge the problem 15:11:01 you are just playing Freud right now 15:11:03 that nugget there 15:11:07 Read yourself back, you are analyzing me, demonizing my thoughts, which you can't accept.. You are feeling offended because I said something about Bitcoin which you don't like :) 15:11:19 no, you fucking moron 15:11:30 I'm getting frustrated because you REFUSE TO ACTUALLY LISTEN TO ANYTHING ANYONE TELLS YOU 15:11:36 Now let's stop that, ok? You are going too far right now 15:11:40 and still pretend to know more about something you've already admitted not understanding 15:11:46 than someone that DOES actually undersatnd it 15:11:47 no 15:11:48 fuck this 15:11:50 I'm getting tired of it 15:11:58 norbert79: if you claim that you do not understand Bitcoin 15:12:03 THEN STOP TALKING AS IF YOU DO 15:12:20 Why, am I banned not having my thoughts and opinions about it? 15:12:31 literally the entire time you've been talking from a mixed position of "my conclusion is already made" and "I know more about Bitcoin than you" 15:12:33 Think about it, I am a technical guy, regular people are even more clueless 15:12:39 despite explicitly stating earlier on that you didn't 15:12:56 Ok dude, stop... I like you, but you are really going far right now 15:13:01 timeout 15:13:02 norbert79: answer this very simple question 15:13:06 do you understand how Bitcoin works or not? 15:13:09 yes or no? 15:13:29 No, simple enough? I looked at the prices, and I don't like them :) 15:13:47 So my question is still valid 15:13:53 why should I buy something digital for 3x the price where I could get the same for cheaper and hardcopy? 15:13:57 follow-up question, do you understand the practical differences between Bitcoin and government-issued currency, in particular the advantages it provides? 15:13:59 yes or no? 15:14:45 No.. Can I get my payment in BTC? No. Can I use BTC in my country? No... Why should I spend time with it then? 15:14:58 okay, so that was the question I asked you 30 minutes ago 15:15:01 that you refused to answer at that point 15:15:11 apart from that not being related to the original point made ("it seems unreliable"), are you aware of the advantages of BTC over typical government-issued currencies? 15:15:30 norbert79: do you understand what I mean when I say your conclusion is already set, and you're not actually listening to what people say? 15:15:37 it would have been trivial to give that answer back then 15:15:44 and this entire escalation would not have occurred 15:15:46 Yes, but basically you are bashing this question already for thirty minutes basically saying I am an idiot... :) 15:15:49 And I still have no clue 15:15:53 so who is personal? 15:16:01 You have freaked out, not me 15:16:02 norbert79: I would have understood your understanding of Bitcoin (or lack thereof) 15:16:05 and I could have filled in the gaps 15:16:19 instead, you chose to constantly repeat "I SEE NO REASON FOR USING IT" without ever addressing the actual question 15:16:24 do you see the problem here? 15:16:35 No, because I am still not convinced BTC could be any use for me :) 15:16:48 what does "being convinced" have to do with what I just described? 15:17:09 if you believe that my only point in this conversation is to 'convince you', you are mistaken 15:17:12 very mistaken\ 15:17:14 Look, are we talking about Bitcoin already or you keep analyzing me, because that is what you do for the past half an hour :) 15:17:40 norbert79: and I get the impression that you're having the entire conversation from the viewpoint that I am someone that is trying to convince you to buy Bitcoins, and you must at all costs protect yourself against that or something 15:17:54 and with that viewpoint, it's not surprising that shit breaks down as it does now./ 15:17:55 Wrong 15:17:59 then what? 15:18:05 My viewpoint represents a regular guys one 15:18:13 working daily and feeding a family 15:18:31 I am talking about your viewpoint with regards to this conversation, not your viewpoint with regards to Bitcoin. 15:18:51 who tries to understand this whole BTC thing and why it is sooo cheerished where the prices are way higher than in regular currencies 15:19:10 so why are you not answering the questions I ask, then? 15:19:24 if I've even explicitly indicated that answers to those questions are necessary to give you a good understanding of Bitcoin? 15:19:26 Because you keep analyzing me dude :D 15:19:43 You are not a shrink, and I am not your patient :) 15:19:55 so again, what's the deal with BTC? :) 15:20:24 if you do not want me to try and gain an understanding of how far your understanding of Bitcoin reaches - in order to be able to give you useful information 15:20:28 then by all means read a static source 15:20:30 such as Wikipedia 15:20:32 or the Bitcoin paper 15:20:42 read it, I am still not really understanding the points 15:20:53 I see only the exchange rates changing rapidly 15:20:53 if you want a generic source of information that you have to spit through, where you have to fill in the blanks on your own 15:20:56 then perhaps that's a better choice 15:20:57 I see the prices 15:21:17 we are talking about money, a form of digital currency, right? 15:21:24 So something to use for buying and selling 15:21:27 norbert79: otherwise, it might be wise to understand that I try to give information that is useful to *you* rather than acting as a human Wikipedia, and to do so I need information as to your current knowledge 15:21:27 right? 15:21:31 and therefore need answers to the questions I ask 15:21:51 if you do not appreciate those questions, then by all means ask someone else that copypastes Wikipedia for you. 15:21:58 Look, you are familiar with it, not me... Why I shall answer questions, why not you answer mine? 15:22:05 But that still doesn't help :) 15:22:20 norbert79: for some reason you seem to fail to understand that the answering of your questions, is dependent on your answering of mine 15:22:28 I mean why shall I invest money into something which currency rate changes more radically, than the currency of Zimbabwe? 15:22:41 so again, if you do not appreciate those questions, then by all means ask someone else that copypastes Wikipedia for you. 15:22:56 if you want to continue to get information from me, then answer the questions 15:23:03 and I can give you a more useful answer than Wikipedia does 15:23:03 Well, that will sure make BTC more charming for anyone on the world outside of the Internet, right_? :) 15:23:28 not seeing any willingness to answer questions. 15:23:30 Look, this goes nowhere, you are analying me, defenindg yourself and you still refuse to answer my every day related questions 15:23:30 brb dry dishes. 15:23:37 Jesus Christ dude... 15:23:50 Get a family, then you understand my point of view too 15:24:25 the internet wasnt built over night 15:24:30 Sure, but still 15:24:33 neither is btc 15:24:34 think about it 15:24:42 I am a technical guy 15:24:47 think about regular people 15:25:00 their first questions would be: How much is my money worth in BTC? 15:25:11 and if you answer them it changes on a minute basis 15:25:17 they will instantly drop it 15:25:38 compared to known currencies BTC seems very radical 15:25:49 and people rely on stable currencies 15:26:37 remmeber, I know what I am talking about it: Hungary had the biggest hyperinflation on the world... Not even Zimbabwe beat us there :D 15:27:08 .bitcoin 15:27:09 1 BTC = $106.91, 1 BTC = €78.70 15:27:20 almost a change of $1 15:27:24 that makes 300 HUF 15:27:27 that's a lot 15:28:03 if fuel prices change even 25 US cents people go crazy 15:28:09 now imagine the same in BTC 15:29:45 i think people have gotten use to the swings 15:30:15 for the most part things have been steadier than past months 15:30:18 Get a family, then you understand my point of view too 15:30:41 ElectRo`: BTC must become even more stable 15:30:49 ElectRo`: To raise interest 15:30:53 oh sure, I'll just work on building a family for a few years, for the sole purpose of 'understanding your viewpoint' which couldn't be done through more reasonable means, because you refused to answer a few simple questions 15:30:58 sounds like a perfect idea! 15:31:04 clearly raising a kid makes you a wizard 15:31:39 I think there is a generation gap there... But you will understand when your first child is born, I am sure, I don't mind if you don't take me seriously right now. You will understand later. 15:32:02 norbert79: no, there is no generation gap here 15:32:10 and it has absolutely nothing - and I mean NOTHING - to do with children or family 15:32:31 it solely has to do with your refusal to answer a few basic questions, the answers of which I need to understand how far your understanding of Bitcoin reaches 15:32:32 You are very wrong there. It has everything to do with family and how you feed them and how you pay the bills. 15:32:43 norbert79: you're completely ignoring the bigger issue 15:32:47 the issue isn't Bitcoin 15:32:52 I don't see it as an issue there, you do :) 15:32:55 the issue is the fact that you don't want to learn about Bitcoin, yet claim you do 15:33:01 and that doesn't go togeher 15:33:03 and just ends up wasting my time 15:33:12 and that has absolutely -nothing- to do with family or children 15:33:14 Go on, carry on with your regular things :) 15:33:19 I am not holding you back 15:33:45 and seeing as you apparently like generic non-tailored information 15:33:47 I don't mind if you ignore all my questions, it's all fine... I will not like you less because of that 15:33:48 here you go: http://falkvinge.net/2013/04/03/why-bitcoin-is-poised-to-change-society-much-more-than-the-internet-did/ 15:35:34 "There is no central bank. This is a revolutionary concept. People can trade cash at a distance without going through an intermediary." - This remind me of the problem with gold back in the middle ages too, where gold was exchanged at a different level everywhere, that's where central exchange rates have been started being introduced 15:36:23 Probably enforced by folks with a lot of gold, like kings? 15:36:40 So that their hoards won't get devalued overnight 15:37:01 Again, the process would be no different, sooner or later it must become somehow centralized 15:37:09 otherwise it will never become stable 15:37:20 Why should it be? 15:37:28 some could just change the value of something overnight, because there is no central control 15:37:47 Just think of 1929 15:37:50 Similar thing happened there 15:38:23 of course the whole thing was different, the main point was, that something with value lost it's value in a blink of an eye 15:38:40 financial control must exist 15:38:48 mtgox monopoly is slowing declining and more and more exchanges are popping up 15:39:14 No system could exist without proper control, I think history has proven that many times 15:39:40 (see? and this is why generic non-tailored information doesn't work) 15:39:48 in other btc news, you can make some serious money if you get into the asic market 15:39:57 current manufactures are horse shit 15:40:03 ElectRo`: meh, doubtful 15:40:16 I don't think the ASIC hype will last very long 15:40:30 and if you want to compete with existing manufacturers, the hype is what you'll need to build on 15:40:44 norbert79, "No system could exist without proper control" - they do, they just don't exist in the same state for long, they evolve and change ;) 15:41:17 norbert79, I think it's rather the case that *with* "proper control" systems exist in a highly suboptimal fossilized state 15:41:22 but you see making more BTC makes exchange rate making a house losing it's value by tenth for example.. That's why financial control must exist. Regular currencies are produced under strict controls 15:41:37 I think different 15:42:27 norbert79: see? that generic non-tailored information I gave you, however useful it may normally be, didn't actually teach you anything 15:42:33 I like that the capitalistic systems looks for changes, but right now what I see is, that all old ideas are just binned... And I don't like that. People dealing with BTC and who understand it shall analyze how regular markets work, how the financial system works 15:42:35 it only gave you more questions, doubts, and things to disagree with 15:42:36 norbert79, BTC production is controlled by math, you can't just issue it 15:42:41 and hasn't improved your understanding 15:43:09 and THAT is why I refuse to give you information without first understanding how far your current knowledge goes, and what it consists of 15:43:31 MK_FG: Calculations and breaking cyphers improve with every day... Some math problems are resolved much faster, than back then, so basing your producing of coins on such is highly unstable in my point of view 15:45:50 * joepie91 sighs 15:46:21 norbert79: all. of. these. things. have. been. taken. into. account. in. the. design. of. bitcoin. but. you. don't. know. because. you're. too. busy. saying. it. sucks. to. learn. how. it. works. 15:46:32 let me know when they break sha256(sha256(x)) 15:46:46 norbert79, True, btc-tailored ASICs coming to market caused some stir, probably not as much as that "hey, btc is rising, invest!" bubble of late ;) 15:47:20 MK_FG: I am just saying, that I am right now not convinced that the basic idea is good as itis 15:47:23 it is 15:47:51 Right now there are so many supercomputers out there... Also, a few years ago MD5 was considered safe 15:48:10 Heh, no 15:48:30 md5 was considered safe only by idiots even a few years ago, I think 15:48:37 Being pretty much broken in 1996 15:48:43 Ok, let's say 10 years ago then :) 15:48:49 But you get my point 15:48:53 Yeah 15:49:12 To transfer cash from overseas for some gig though, btc is cool 15:49:19 Sure 15:49:25 I hardly would disagree with that 15:49:32 I find Paypal also cool 15:49:43 made my life hundred times easier 15:50:05 If it works in your country and you can stand the risk of it freezing your acc for whatever reason... 15:50:16 ive only have had issues with paypal 15:50:35 but elon musk is a smart man 15:50:46 It's actually coming to russia these days, in september or so iirc 15:50:48 MK_FG: hmm, sure, that is a valid point, but still, BTC is stored how? 15:50:59 MK_FG: I mean you can't bring it in your vallet 15:51:16 Heh, neither paypal 15:51:24 Sure, but Paypal is relying on a currency 15:51:28 You have password-like private key for btc 15:51:37 theres paper wallets for btc 15:51:45 Which can be accepted by any other btc user, not any central bank 15:52:02 MK_FG: I mean you can't bring it in your vallet 15:52:04 of course you can. 15:52:22 Nice, but still what makes me not faking the amount of my BTC coins? I mean I could pretend, that I have lot more, right? 15:52:28 Yeah, actually you can, yeah ;) 15:52:40 Print keys on paper, fold, done ;) 15:52:45 lol 15:52:51 norbert79, No, you can't 15:52:56 And why? 15:53:13 That "pretend" must be signed by sha256 hash with 8 \0 bytes 15:53:22 (or 6? don't remember) 15:53:24 Issued by whom? 15:53:35 And be in a public log, recognized by all other miners 15:53:46 Heh, see? You're interested in how it works ;) 15:53:57 I am just trying to understand as told 15:54:26 If I look at a device I am not instantly taking it apart, I am looking at it first :) 15:54:37 Well, imagine 10 people who don't trust each other want to exchange stuff 15:55:27 Ok, but what makes me not being able to use a new key and spread that and claiming I have 10.000 coins for example? 15:55:45 the keys must be stored centrally, right?_ 15:55:50 Nope 15:55:59 It has public transaction log that every client has 15:56:30 Sure, but what makes me pretending all their logs are wrong? 15:56:34 I am just playing with theories 15:56:49 Like a DNS poisoning 15:56:50 Every entry in that log is *public* (async ecc crypto) "from" and "to" keys and amount 15:57:02 Every such entry is called "block" 15:57:21 ok, but again, what makes me not able faking those transactions? 15:57:29 Every such block also has a random nonce 15:57:58 And every valid block, by protocol convention, should have sha256 hash with like 8 \0 bytes at the beginning 15:58:13 so there is a maximum limit of coins then, probably.. Who counts what is the maximum? 15:58:23 So to produce "valid" block, you have to vary nonce, until you get correct hash 15:58:51 Also, every block hash hash of previous block in it 15:58:54 sure, but transactions could be faker then too 15:58:57 fake 15:59:11 so is there a limit of maximum coins? 15:59:19 21 million is the maximum amount of btc 15:59:23 Ok 15:59:30 and who counts that? Where is that stored? 15:59:35 approximately 21 million * 15:59:38 They can be, if such block is accepted by others and signatures match 16:00:36 who controls the maximum number of coins then? 16:00:59 norbert79, But see, if evilguy-1 wants to say "norbert79 gave me 100 BTC", he has to sign stuff with your private key, as "norbert79 has 100 BTC" only because previous blocks mention that someone transferred these to your public key 16:01:10 sure, I get that 16:01:16 norbert79, Hence, evilguy-1 can't forge a valid block like that 16:01:21 but who controls the maximum number of coins then? 16:01:29 New coins, right 16:01:52 Each new block has a "special" key that gets N (fixed amount) BTC from nowhere 16:02:12 but could that be faked? 16:02:16 Everyone calculating block hash, naturally, will insert their own key there 16:02:39 So that they gets these for their hard work of calculating hash 16:03:17 brb, need to catch my bus 16:03:21 And valid blcks must be some N (fixed by protocol) minutes apart (at minimum) iirc 16:03:34 ooh, a decent discussion 16:03:58 So you it's not only hard to make 1000 blocks with valid hashes in line, no one will accept these either 16:04:06 (because they're not these N mins apart) 16:04:08 I suppose it would have been nice to have me here, damn 16:04:12 too bad I just woke up haha 16:04:13 (or are in the future) 16:04:44 norbert79, See ya! But seriously, paper probably describes it better than me 16:05:01 yeah btc paper is very accessible 16:05:22 norbert79, So you might want to read that one after all, to get a reply, esp. if I decide to be lazy to type ;) 16:09:03 lady-3jane, Sadly, you're late ;) 16:09:38 Also, note the drama ;) 16:09:54 lady-3jane: I don't doubt that the discussion will resume at a later point 16:10:05 I'll avoid reading up then, for the moment 16:10:06 lol 16:10:16 loggy, pointer? 16:10:16 http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-08-13#T16-10-16 16:10:21 * lady-3jane got this 16:12:38 lady-3jane, "how would one design a stateless distributed protocol?" <-- other issues aside, it'd be horribly insecure ;) 16:13:02 right!? 16:13:07 that's been the fucking issue 16:13:11 lol 16:13:13 Why'd you want one though 16:13:31 Just get good-enough thing where knowng any one peer would be enuff for bootstrap 16:13:35 because that would remove the issue of centralization for bootstrapping 16:13:46 You don't have to centralize it! 16:13:51 I know 16:13:54 did you read the logs? 16:13:56 Just make it possible to bootstrap from anyone! 16:14:00 Yep! 16:14:05 all these protocols, that are built on top of the internet :( 16:14:09 (maybe not too attentively) 16:14:17 peer exchange over dht + local caching would be sufficient 16:14:21 that's what we ended with 16:14:27 I'd say nope 16:14:40 how would you do better, and why 16:14:51 New peers in that scheme would have to go to some central thing then, I assume 16:14:58 no 16:15:09 you ship the peers you're connected to 16:15:21 I'd make it so that there're no hard-coded "central" peers and one can get peer anywhere, e.g. from any website or irc 16:15:28 so rather than bootstrapping every time, you only hopefully have to bootstrap your dht shit once 16:15:44 Right, but shipping them from one location you have them basically be the center 16:15:54 So when someone downloads package a year later... 16:16:07 ...and they all go down by then, they're screwed 16:16:12 I don't understand what the issue you're pointing out is 16:16:46 Ok, you have a package, e.g. "my-network-suite" 16:16:48 (or perhaps more accurately, I don't understand /why/ it's an issue) 16:17:06 You put it on some site, e.g. sourceforge or github 16:17:16 all these protocols, that are built on top of the internet :( 16:17:18 ? 16:17:20 Do you hardcode some bootstrap peers in, like bittorrent does? 16:17:37 they hardcode their bootstrap box 16:17:44 router.utorrent.com iirc 16:17:45 Yep, they do 16:18:01 hmm, oh 16:18:03 I think I see 16:18:19 so the issue is there would be no updated peer lists after a year because nobody would be touching the bootstrap 16:18:23 haha yeah that'd be an issue 16:18:33 hmm 16:18:51 I'd think in a year that "router.utorrent.com" might go bust 16:19:12 I bet not, but it's a good problem to try and tackle 16:19:13 And it'd be /dev/null, so yeah, let users bootstrap from any node and type any such one themselves 16:19:30 hmm 16:19:43 So that e.g. when they go to TEH Pirate Bay, there's a note "hey, here's a peer" 16:19:44 would you, say, do peer packages a la oneswarm? 16:20:04 you manually add key/peer lists for that one 16:20:15 And if you go to #crytocc and ask "hey, need torrents, gimme peers", we can give our urls ;) 16:20:18 Yeah 16:20:36 I think it's done in quite a few darknet projects that way 16:20:41 hmm 16:20:43 yeah 16:20:52 that's a good idea except absolutely nobody will do it 16:20:53 Like cjdns, where it's also persistent peers 16:21:07 it's not user transparent enough, I think 16:21:11 So that there's also some level of accountability for e.g. giving out peers to spammers 16:21:17 True dat ;) 16:21:29 it's why we put up with bootstrapping now 16:21:30 Users can't be relied upon to type anything these days, it seems ;) 16:21:35 it's not the best idea, but it generally works 16:21:55 Unless, you discount these as lost cause anwyay ;) 16:22:00 I wonder if there is dht router software around 16:22:13 because it'd be neat to run third party routers 16:22:32 same for supernodes 16:22:34 I think I've seen a few for original kad 16:22:42 GhostWhiteCrab or something like that 16:22:44 I could only find one supernode software 16:23:07 my box is on real internet now, so it's gonna be a tracker and dht superpeer if I can helpit 16:23:19 I remember setting it up a while ago for ed2k kad-only node, but don't recall succeeding 16:23:25 joepie91: i was referring to the darknets that use the existing internet to work 16:23:29 I think WinMX is relevant here 16:23:37 to show how manual peer addition can serve as a fallback 16:23:38 a fallback that works 16:23:46 WinMX was shut down in 2005 16:23:50 through the RIAA 16:24:04 and within a few days, a community patch was released 16:24:07 on a non-official site 16:24:08 NP: [The Dandy Warhols - Bohemian Like You] [Thirteen Tales From Urban Bohemia] [977kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane 16:24:15 that had a replacement cache server coded into it 16:24:29 to use the new cache server, users had to manually find, download, and install the patch 16:24:47 man that makes my skin crawl lol 16:24:50 even today, 3 different community patch groups later, the network is still very much alive 16:25:04 despite having been officially shut down for 8 years 16:25:11 and there not having been any updates to the client since... 2004? 16:25:17 (because noone has the source..) 16:25:37 if manual peer input is used as a fallback mechanism, I think it certainly *can* work 16:25:39 Yeah, actually it's probably better idea to just do forks and start distributing these with new hardcoded peers, if network is public 16:25:51 so you could use bootstrap servers by default, and then fall back to manual peer entry IF the bootstrap servers go down 16:26:01 joepie91: i was referring to the darknets that use the existing internet to work 16:26:02 Indeedy 16:26:09 current darknets do not technically require the "internet" 16:26:18 there's just no other physical infra available 16:26:18 :p 16:26:27 Sometimes there is! 16:26:37 not worldwide at least 16:26:37 and it's probably used when there is 16:26:46 in Spain, there's a pretty big meshnet 16:26:46 afaik 16:26:49 Not worldwide, yeah 16:26:53 And in .de too 16:26:54 I'm loving the meshnetwork stuff people are doing 16:27:01 Freufunk or something like that 16:27:14 Also https://wiki.projectmeshnet.org/List_of_Mesh_Locals 16:27:20 (for cjdns-based ones) 16:27:21 it makes me want to make wifi network infrastructure and chaosboxes 16:28:14 chaosboxes? 16:28:15 hmm, so is gnutella's dht the same as bittorrent's? 16:28:18 yes 16:28:30 locked down shell boxes that don't keep track of users or anything 16:28:36 Oh, yeah 16:28:38 usually openbsd or so 16:28:58 That had so many incarnations, sad that still not that accessible or alive in any of them 16:29:03 you install the OS and bash/znc/irssi and walk away 16:29:09 yeah 16:29:43 I'm actually putting one in a nearby house soonishly, when my beaglebone black arrives... 16:30:02 :3 16:30:41 hmm 16:30:51 funny that the day I decided to go riding it's sunny in the morning 16:33:00 oh right 16:33:01 hahahaha 16:33:06 I wrote a grid system and forgot about it 16:33:15 I suppose I should write a site... 16:33:26 Grid grid? 16:33:38 css 16:33:57 Oh, lesser grid grid ;) 16:33:57 and wrote is a misnomer, more like stole and renamed and fixed 16:34:11 lesser write lesser grid grid 16:34:18 but I have to write a site on it so I remember how it works 16:34:25 maybe put it on my example paeg 16:34:27 page 16:34:28 * MK_FG just invented his own retard-speak 16:34:49 * lady-3jane chucks you off the cliff like sparta 16:35:14 Damn fascists 16:35:41 hmm 16:35:54 The creator isn't the bootstrap; the default bootstraps are located at router.utorrent.com and router.bittorrent.com. For a user to add himself as the bootstrap for the torrent, he needs to modify the torrent to include a `nodes' list in the root dictionary where each element in the list is an IP:port combination that acts as a DHT bootstrap. 16:35:54 If the default bootstraps for DHT die, then you can add to µTorrent's torrent jobs list a torrent with a `nodes' list that contains known-to-be-working bootstraps. µTorrent will use those nodes as DHT bootstraps. 16:36:59 sounds like I need a bootstrap box 16:36:59 :> 16:37:57 Bittorrent doesn't seem to going out of bussiness just yet 16:38:14 *be 16:38:20 µTorrent doesn't create a nodes key automatically, no. I'm not sure it's really a question of "should." Unless you have a real reason to believe router.utorrent.com will be inaccessible soon-ish, you don't need to need to manually add your own clients as bootstraps. 16:38:21 Yes you can, though, if that's what you're getting at. Oh, and the entries in the nodes key don't need to have IPs -- it can contain domain names (so if you don't have a static IP, you can still use your own computers as bootstraps if they have domain names). 16:39:13 Huh, they even have some auth baked into bootstrap? 16:39:37 no? 16:39:49 Oh! 16:40:01 "node's key" is not *that* key ;) 16:40:05 the node key is the dictionary in the head of the .torrent which lists the bootstrap peers 16:40:16 optionally present 16:40:16 I thought it was about some x509 cert or something ;) 16:40:19 nah 16:40:25 Yeah, just name/ip 16:40:35 and port, yeah 16:40:40 in a dictionary 16:40:41 :> 16:41:21 Yep, why the hell not ;) 16:43:55 YES 16:44:07 JCH WROTE A DHT BOOTSTRAP PEER 16:44:07 YES 16:44:10 SO MUCH YES 16:44:22 problem: solved 16:45:01 I fuckin love this guy 16:45:24 this page, man. http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/bittorrent/ 16:45:32 so much good stuff 16:45:52 he wrote the dht that transmission and shareaza use 16:46:09 and tixati 16:46:11 and ktorrent 16:46:13 hahahahahaha 16:50:46 *** Ari (Ari@Ari.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 16:51:48 Oh yeah, I remember looking up his work, starting from polipo 16:52:11 Then looked at the site where it was hosted and saw distributed routing and stuff 16:52:19 Really fun person! 16:53:20 yeah 16:53:24 hekate is my shit 16:53:38 I'm excited about finally having a box I can run it on 16:55:19 im suppose to writing a paper 16:55:27 this internet thing is getting in the way 16:56:50 ElectRo`: see, if this were AnonOps, you could have asked for someone to 'disable' your internet connection for a while... 16:56:50 :P 16:56:56 (I remember that actually happening in #lounge) 16:57:00 Hahah 16:57:19 It sounds like internet-bdsm 16:57:27 another common tactic was a temporary zline 16:57:28 on request 16:57:43 "I need to finish this essay and AnonOps is distracting me, mind zlining me for 5 hours or so?" 16:57:54 ive been re reading the btc wiki 16:58:04 when im suppose to be writing a paper on NAS 16:58:14 ElectRo`: write a paper on btc! 16:58:14 :P 16:58:16 anyway, bfb 16:58:18 brb, even 16:58:39 ElectRo`, Stand up, make coffee, chill out for a few mins... 16:58:50 ElectRo`, ...then go back and do whatever you wanted to 16:58:57 (not the internet thing) 16:59:16 I find it easier to change tracks with unrelated break in-between 16:59:58 podcast i listen to is about to start streaming 17:00:11 and i think im going to shake a window in win7 17:00:47 Right, maybe you've had enuff coffee and sugar as it is... 17:01:10 none yet 17:03:06 Did you fall into a vat of coffee as a child? 17:03:21 (just checking) 17:04:11 i was drinking coffee and soda way to much 17:05:44 ElectRo`: get joepie91 to zline you :P 17:07:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4yfWRscHz0 17:07:36 work music :> 17:10:36 from tcx, oh man 17:10:37 https://twitter.com/8bitf0x/status/367309214227525633/photo/1 17:10:42 so much win 17:26:10 "Fe*d-splaining" Example: "You'd totally change your position on this privacy issue if you had the right security clearance" 17:26:24 "Get a family, then you understand my point of view too" 17:26:31 Just saying 17:27:28 lel 17:27:41 I understand their point of view without the security clearance 17:27:43 how queer is that? :D 17:36:12 Qeer enuff to be beaten up by redneck ruskies, I'd say 17:41:59 ohai Ari 17:42:42 lady-3jane: rofl 17:43:12 sup :3 17:44:09 lol, I grew up with those 17:44:14 well, redneck polskis anyway 17:44:29 (polaks? hahaha I'm told I shouldn't use that term) 17:47:06 Hm, they're called polaks here... and that's actually the only thing they're called here 17:47:24 Never heard of it being insulting or anything 17:47:53 I was told never to call anyone that 17:48:06 but, it was what we called people where I grew up 17:48:10 apparently it's insanely racist lol 17:48:35 Well, apparently not in russian! :) 17:48:57 I used to make jokes cause we drove by a town called "Pollock Pines" and I used to joke that it was Polak Pines 17:48:58 lol 17:59:52 Wow, I didn't realize hyperloop was modelled after burrito tunnel until reading twitters 18:00:57 to bad logical ideas never seem to work in the real world 18:02:06 Damn you Nature!!! 18:03:35 I wonder if it'll work on some scale though, apparently not-that-insane guy pumps money into it 18:06:58 i hope some other countries uses that design 18:07:27 and rubs in in california's face 18:07:31 it 18:07:55 Heh, like UK to it's Aussie colony ;P 18:08:16 (was in that movie a year ago) 18:08:42 On an unrelated note from twitters - I'm sure this will end well - http://americablog.com/2013/08/russia-olympics-gay-safety-athletes-sochi.html 19:35:17 hi guys 19:35:38 I don't understand: what are you making the internet like? 19:38:16 I mean: do you just talk of existing things relating the internet - or is here a conversation about new inventions and ideas about the internet? (And if both, I'm asking for the latter ones first) 19:40:15 loggy, pointer? 19:40:15 http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-08-13#T19-40-15 19:40:19 btw 19:40:43 what about putting a bot called "loggy, pointer?" just to activate autocompletion? :D lulz 19:40:59 lol 19:54:10 monod: not possible 19:54:11 the bot thing 19:54:20 space is not allowed in nickname :) 19:54:35 plus most clients would suggest 'loggy' before 'loggy, pointer?' anyway 19:55:22 for the latter, that's no problem, just ,+Tab 19:55:30 but for the former: ok, no way then :D 19:59:03 got to go, I'll be reading you guyz on the logz 19:59:15 *** monod has quit (User quit: Cya men) 20:03:30 Evening 20:04:51 man, riding 4 miles to campus, all up hill 20:04:57 that shit is hard 20:05:03 it'll be easy in another couple runs 20:05:22 http://rt.com/usa/google-gmail-motion-privacy-453/ 20:05:28 Google: Gmail users â??have no legitimate expectation of privacyâ?? 20:06:03 Lovely 20:06:15 Time to move my own mailing to a private SMTP 20:06:21 and run my own XMPP 20:07:59 ugh 20:08:01 see 20:08:05 I don't even really care 20:08:06 whatever 20:08:09 gov can read my emails 20:08:14 "If you don't want everyone to see what you're doing, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place" -- Eric Schmidt (from memory) 20:09:41 hell yes. https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=567153056643438 20:09:55 o_O 20:10:45 that'd be the best mcdonalds commerical 20:11:13 I let gandi run my mail 20:11:34 I dunno if it's a good idea, but it seems like a better idea than gmail 20:22:13 *** skill3r (skill3r@developers.developers.developers) has joined #crytocc 20:22:16 ohai 20:22:28 im liking fastmail for a gmail alt 20:23:43 meh, still hoste 20:23:47 hosted * 20:25:46 http://www.neowin.net/news/lavabit-founder-if-you-knew-what-i-know-about-email-you-might-not-use-it 20:35:19 there was one in florida too 20:37:03 *** ElectRo` has quit (Client exited) 20:38:10 you know what bothers me? wildcard ssl certs are not cheap 20:38:28 it's like BAM 250k in insurance, but fuck I don't want that 20:38:34 how about 0$ in insurance 20:39:24 anybody have a CA they like? 20:39:43 my cert's up in 10 days, which is why I'm looking :D 20:39:59 `openssl genrsa` 20:40:05 is my favourite CA 20:40:20 (yes I know that's technically incorrect, stfu, don't spoil the joke) 20:41:03 no CA gives horror stories in browsers, can't do that 20:42:02 we don't have enough people running convergence for that 20:42:47 *** electro (electro@13BD45F.B2256668.ABD06C46.IP) has joined #crytocc 20:43:40 ummmm hiccup over 20:43:44 all is well 20:48:15 ugh 20:48:18 who doesn't suck :| 20:49:59 I may just email entrust again and see how their ecc certs are coming 20:53:06 Do browsers suport these? 20:56:58 browsers that support tls1.1 do, which is chrome 20:57:10 firefox 24+ supports too, but is disabled by default 20:57:32 finally nss (ff's tls/crypto shit) does tls1.1 and 1.2, but it is again disabled by default 20:57:58 rumors that IE11 will support tls1.1 and 1.2, which means they will also support ecc keys 21:01:06 ecdhe_rsa and rc4_128 with tls 1.2 on https://pay.reddit.com/ 21:01:12 entrust cert 21:01:56 im using the latest chrome beta 21:12:28 well, there went chrome 21:12:46 ecdhe_rsa is the key exchange mechanism, has nothing to do with the cert 21:13:28 yeah see the cert is sha1+rsa 21:15:53 but, yes, entrust issued it :P 21:15:53 thats what i figured after the fact 21:16:15 ecc support has a long ways togo :< 21:16:19 and it's funny that you're on tls1.2 because none of those things are tls1.2 features 21:16:35 ecdhe_rsa and rc4 are 1.0 21:16:39 lmao 21:17:01 now if you were running camelia_cbc, then it'd be a 1.2 feature 21:17:17 ive seen a couple of camelia_cbc 21:17:26 but its mostly rc4 everywhere 21:17:30 (camelia got added into 1.2 because it won some .eu cipher competitions) 21:17:36 yeah 21:17:39 camelia is hot 21:17:55 it optimises decently in both software and hardware 21:18:05 not WELL, but decently 21:18:15 anyway 21:18:26 hmm I wonder what my site does 21:18:38 yeeee 21:18:41 not too bad 21:18:55 tls1.2 aes_128_cbc sha256 ecdhe_rsa 21:18:59 that's not too shabby 21:19:27 not sha1 [check] but cbc 21:20:09 nope 21:20:25 cbc isn't an issue with tls1.1 and 1.2 21:20:28 only 1.0 21:21:20 the mitigation for cbc issues (some sort of null iv thing I forget) were specced into 1.1 and 1.2... but most clients don't support them yet 21:21:25 hence scary words around cbc 21:22:00 seems like chrome 29 or so is gonna do 1.2 shipping 21:22:04 which I'm super excite about 21:22:16 and I fucking wish firefox would flip it on 21:22:18 but they're being cunts 21:22:20 so tls 1.1/2 solves beast? 21:22:24 yes 21:22:34 1.1/1.2 are not vuln to beast 21:22:56 but since the ciphers vuln to beast work in 1.0, and 1.0 clients do not have the mitigation, it's still an issue 21:22:57 not enough pressure was put onto the browsers 21:23:19 i dislike the step backwards for rc4 21:23:26 I want ecc cert support and tls1.2 preferred... yesterday 21:23:31 rc4 is broken 21:23:34 pretty much 21:23:39 i want ecc in my openvpn 21:23:45 you can get it, I think 21:23:49 try uh 21:23:53 openvpn-nl 21:23:57 key exchange 21:24:00 yes, dutch feds made it 21:24:06 it uses polarssl instead of openssl 21:25:10 yeah vpn shit needs some work still 21:25:18 I wish browsers would step up their game a bit more though 21:25:28 we're getting there, but jeez is it slow 21:25:38 eix -I openvpn 21:25:44 whoops 21:25:44 it's a lot of bitching though 21:25:57 i think the patent is holding it back 21:26:02 for example, f5's bigip ssl terminators had a bug with tls1.x 21:26:07 yeah that too 21:26:08 i should fork putty 21:26:20 someone needs to buy them and dedicate to public or something 21:26:34 or do like google is and fight others in court so they can be used 21:26:57 If you do gov work, ecc isn't hard 21:27:11 you talk to the NSA and they have an unlimited license for all ecc 21:27:33 they sell em to gov contractors and agencies pretty fuckin cheap too 21:28:17 but that comes with being the purveyors of nsa suite b 21:28:27 which is basically what I want supported in all tls capable client software 21:28:37 (and server software) 21:28:54 suite b is what we're aiming for 21:31:03 my pdf/ folder is too big 21:33:01 never 21:33:24 its a clusterfuck too 21:33:28 so many whitepapers 21:33:34 same here :P 21:34:02 i read one whitepaper and end up opening 5 other references 21:34:09 then i forget where i started 21:34:34 :3 21:40:04 thats how those things go.. 21:40:50 ugh compiling anything qt based 21:40:58 so much kill-me-now 21:41:03 *** foolex has quit (Ping timeout) 21:42:40 i think libreoffice is much much worse 21:42:56 chromium / gcc use to be bad on a core2 21:43:43 *** foolex (foolex@E6A8C7AF.6A97939C.CEC56216.IP) has joined #crytocc 21:46:21 it's funny because libreoffice is much better than it used to be 21:46:49 most of their work right now is paying down a decade of debt 21:48:20 *** Raging (Raging@57C0825B.A22BC5F5.4CD50A38.IP) has joined #crytocc 21:48:46 Hello 21:49:36 massive dicks 21:49:37 *** Raging has quit (Connection reset by peer) 21:49:43 success! 21:53:14 sexess 21:57:55 *** ilikeapricot has quit (Ping timeout) 22:05:14 *** Raging (Raging@C415DA85.A22BC5F5.4CD50A38.IP) has joined #crytocc 22:09:33 i sorta want to recreate whonix with my current systems 22:13:36 *** Ishaq has quit (Ping timeout) 22:21:18 *** HiveResearch (HiveResear@developers.developers.developers) has joined #crytocc 22:29:16 mmm 22:29:20 old music 22:30:20 NP: [Nelly Furtado - ....On The Radio (Remember The Days)] [Whoa, Nelly!] [1005kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane 22:36:14 *** Raging has quit (Ping timeout) 22:53:32 http://americablog.com/2013/08/russia-olympics-gay-safety-athletes-sochi.html > agh, we're fucked 22:53:45 MK_FG:) get your country's shit together, jeez 22:54:24 *** norbert79 has quit (Ping timeout) 22:54:54 Yeah, already scheming together an insurrection on friday 22:56:09 You might be surprised at how many people who're usually also got totally raped by this gov are kinda-patriots (in russian way) and strongly support it 23:01:28 :/ 23:02:17 *** norbert79 (Norbi@cryto-433DB954.pool.digikabel.hu) has joined #crytocc 23:05:11 There's also openly nazi posters on the streets all around these days, and last I talked to a bunch of known people, was surprised a lot at how openly xenophobic they seem to be after some recent local events 23:05:55 It's kinda weird, but meh, maybe I'm just noticing this stuff a bit more, or maybe we're heading in an interesting direction... ;) 23:07:52 Scary thing about nazi posters is that it's propaganda for soonish elections... it's like they get politics backwards or something 23:10:50 lady-3jane, wrt tls, you mean that ecdsa sigs in certs are part of tls1.1, right? 23:13:16 Also, I'd think that "disabled support for 1.1" wouldn't necessarily translate into "support for all 1.1 features, if enabled", but openssl probably learned these things long ago, so don't really see why not myself... 23:13:37 Still, curious, haven't really seen certs with ecc in the wild 23:16:48 *** Ishaq (Ishaq@cryto-6C73979.rf.usr.sh) has joined #crytocc 23:29:11 http://cms.fightforthefuture.org/barrett-brown/ 23:36:40 *** Ari has quit (Ping timeout) 23:37:48 *** stanone (Adrian@LapAnon.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 23:38:16 *** Ari (Ari@Ari.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc 23:41:03 Russia's gonna have a yolocaust 23:44:03 *** mmd has quit (Connection reset by peer) 23:44:32 *** mmd (mmd@3217548D.5D1F0EDB.C3C89A03.IP) has joined #crytocc 23:55:25 hm 23:55:27 .startgh 23:55:31 Now watching GitHub for users joepie91, iceTwy, FichteFoll, cam1337, codetalkdev, shiny. 23:55:35 there we go 23:57:22 It'd be "fun" if Obama and Putin decide to start a small war to get internal situation under control